rule question melee v.s. gun - Dumpshock Forums

rule question melee v.s. gun, interaction hurts my brain

Straight Razor View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 02:40 AM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761	ok, so i have my range (pistol, rifle) skill and i get up in the grip of a melee master. he attacks me rolling his (unarmed, edged weapon, club) skill. what do i do. can i roll my pistols?, if i get more net success do i shoot him, or club him with the gun?

Fortune View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:14 AM Post #2
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	If you use your Pistols Skill, you could shoot him (albeit with a penalty) If you use your Clubs Skill, you could thump him with the pistol. If you used your Unarmed Skill, you could hit him with your free hand/foot/heed. Depends. :)

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:17 AM Post #3
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	You cannot use a ranged combat skill as a melee skill. If you have a gun in your hands and are attacked by a melee person the only skills you may use is Clubs, or you may use a free action to drop your gun and use Unarmed Combat. If you don't have the appropriate melee skill you must use defaulting. That's how min maxed gun people get screwed by judiciously positioned physads. EDIT: To clarify following the last post, if I have Pistols 6 I cannot just use that to roll 6 dice for the purpose of defending against and possibly counterattacking against a NPC using Unarmed Combat 6 to make an attack on me. Pistols 6 counts for nothing when he's in the middle of attacking me with his melee attack.

Fortune View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:38 AM Post #4
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Ah, I see the possibly misconception. I never meant to imply that a person could use his Pistols Skills as a defense. He could indeed still use that Pistols Skill to attack on his turn however, with a modifier as I said. And I don't see any rule about having to 'drop a weapon' in order to be able to use Unarmed Combat. Do you have a reference?

Wounded Ronin

Aug 6 2007, 05:53 AM

Post #5

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QUOTE (Fortune)

Ah, I see the possibly misconception. I never meant to imply that a person could use his Pistols Skills as a defense. He could indeed still use that Pistols Skill to attack on his turn however, with a modifier as I said.

And I don't see any rule about having to 'drop a weapon' in order to be able to use Unarmed Combat. Do you have a reference?

Not a specific reference, but "unarmed combat" means you're not using a weapon.

Fortune View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 08:29 AM Post #6
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Right, meaning you could use the limbs that don't contain the gun. You know, the feet, the head, or even the off-hand. There are no hard-and-fast rules as far as melee is concerned as far as which part of the body is used, nor are there, as far as I know, any penalties or modifiers for the different parts.

Critias View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 10:35 AM Post #7
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	Which is where it gets fuzzy -- some GMs will let a dude toting a machinegun use Unarmed 'cause he still has his feet free and can kick. Some GMs won't let someone with a pistol in one hand use Unarmed 'cause he's just plain holding something (and pretty much everything is a Club by default, so he must use the Clubs skill). It varies from game to game.

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 08:43 PM Post #8
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...letsee... While holding a small firearm (pistol or SMG without stock extended) Elbow smashes would work (just watch an NBA game) Forearm smashes would work. ...of course I would allow these only if the player declares that is what his character is doing. Of course 5 BPs for the Ambidexterity Quality and then you can shoot with one hand and punch with the other all you want.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 6 2007, 10:30 PM

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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

...letsee...

While holding a small firearm (pistol or SMG without stock extended)

Elbow smashes would work (just watch an NBA game)
Forearm smashes would work.

...of course I would allow these only if the player declares that is what his character is doing.

Of course 5 BPs for the Ambidexterity Quality and then you can shoot with one hand and punch with the other all you want.

I suppose that how you treat Unarmed Combat while holding a pistol depends on how you want your game to be in terms of strategy.

If we wanted to make Unarmed Combat more valuable we'd let it apply whenever you're attacked (i.e. even if you're holding a gun) and that would be the balancing factor which justfies it costing as much as the more effective Edged Weapons with a nodachi.

If we wanted to instead make the game more strategic about whether you are getting ready to shoot or getting ready to melee we could make Unarmed Combat only apply when you're not holding any objects, i.e. you must get into your karate pose and raise one leg for the crane kick. That would force players to actively decide if they're more likely to shoot next turn or more likely to melee.

Finally, it would add a great deal more value to the Clubs skill since you'd never be caught with your pants down while holding a firearm.

Personally, making Unarmed Combat apply only when you're emptyhanded makes the most intuitive sense. As long as we're going to divide Clubs and Unarmed Combat into seperate skills I don't think that it makes sense to let Unarmed Combat apply when someone is clearly holding a Club. As long as part of the game is making the statistical decision to spend X points on Unarmed and X points on Clubs, I want that choice to be meaningful in the game.

nezumi View Member Profile	Aug 7 2007, 01:07 PM Post #10
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Oh, or we could force players to use Clubs + offhand(unarmed)/2!

Critias View Member Profile	Aug 7 2007, 01:41 PM Post #11
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	But that would just add to the silliness and emotional rollercoaster of the Ambidexterity rules. :( Using every part of your body when making an unarmed combat attack yields no bonus. :) Wearing special gloves makes an Ambidextrous person 50% better! :( Wielding a knife in one hand and nothing in the other yields no bonus. :) Wielding a knife in one hand and wearing a special glove on the other does! :( Wielding a stun baton in one hand and nothing in the other doesn't. :) Holding a gun in one hand and nothing in the other does!

nezumi View Member Profile	Aug 7 2007, 03:01 PM Post #12
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Why do you think Michael Jackson has that special glove? It's all about the 50% bonus...

Critias View Member Profile	Aug 7 2007, 03:18 PM Post #13
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	On grapple checks, maybe.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 7 2007, 03:35 PM Post #14
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	"Michael Jackson, look what you've done!" ~J

Kyoto Kid

Aug 7 2007, 08:48 PM

Post #15

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Personally, making Unarmed Combat apply only when you're emptyhanded makes the most intuitive sense. As long as we're going to divide Clubs and Unarmed Combat into seperate skills I don't think that it makes sense to let Unarmed Combat apply when someone is clearly holding a Club. As long as part of the game is making the statistical decision to spend X points on Unarmed and X points on Clubs, I want that choice to be meaningful in the game.

...I disagree. My comment about watching an NBA game was more than joking around. A player who is holding the ball and elbows his opponent in the face is hitting the other player with part of his body, not the ball (which would technically be the club, albeit a pretty poor one). He could perform this move without the ball with the exact same results. Therefore, it would come under Unarmed as the ball is just an incidental object in the offending player's hands just as a gun would be if it's wielder decided to elbow his opponent in the gut. The gun does not come into contact with the target (nor does it add to the DV of the attack) only the character's elbow does.

As an aside, one thing that never made sense was why the writers never chose to include brass knuckles in the gear section. They have all this other exotic means of adding to unarmed DV like body plating, bone lacing, bone density etc. but you can't tell me that nobody makes brass knuckles anymore.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 7 2007, 10:43 PM

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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Personally, making Unarmed Combat apply only when you're emptyhanded makes the most intuitive sense. As long as we're going to divide Clubs and Unarmed Combat into seperate skills I don't think that it makes sense to let Unarmed Combat apply when someone is clearly holding a Club. As long as part of the game is making the statistical decision to spend X points on Unarmed and X points on Clubs, I want that choice to be meaningful in the game.

...I disagree. My comment about watching an NBA game was more than joking around. A player who is holding the ball and elbows his opponent in the face is hitting the other player with part of his body, not the ball (which would technically be the club, albeit a pretty poor one). He could perform this move without the ball with the exact same results. Therefore, it would come under Unarmed as the ball is just an incidental object in the offending player's hands just as a gun would be if it's wielder decided to elbow his opponent in the gut. The gun does not come into contact with the target (nor does it add to the DV of the attack) only the character's elbow does.

As an aside, one thing that never made sense was why the writers never chose to include brass knuckles in the gear section. They have all this other exotic means of adding to unarmed DV like body plating, bone lacing, bone density etc. but you can't tell me that nobody makes brass knuckles anymore.

I would argue that you're hampered if you are trying to hold or dribble a ball while making an Unarmed Combat attack. If you weren't trying to manipulate the ball and instead were totally focused on assaulting the other guy there are a whole lot more tactics that fall under Unarmed Combat that would be open to you, including grabbing the other guy's head with one hand and driving your elbow into his face with your other arm, which is specifically not an option if you're holding the ball. Similarly, if you didn't worry about the ball you could judo throw the guy, collapse on him, and grapple him. If you just wanted to strike him you'd have more options without the ball; jab jab cross hook hook uppercut is a lot harder when you're holding the ball.

So I feel like if Unarmed Combat represents the wonderful world of all unarmed forms of attack many of your best routes are going to be compromised if something is already being held in one of your hands.

Herald of Verjig...

Aug 7 2007, 11:15 PM

Post #17

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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

As an aside, one thing that never made sense was why the writers never chose to include brass knuckles in the gear section. They have all this other exotic means of adding to unarmed DV like body plating, bone lacing, bone density etc. but you can't tell me that nobody makes brass knuckles anymore.

Hardliner gloves. Not brass, and a little more subtle, but same idea.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 7 2007, 11:52 PM

Post #18

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 7 2007, 03:48 PM)

As an aside, one thing that never made sense was why the writers never chose to include brass knuckles in the gear section. They have all this other exotic means of adding to unarmed DV like body plating, bone lacing, bone density etc. but you can't tell me that nobody makes brass knuckles anymore.

Hardliner gloves. Not brass, and a little more subtle, but same idea.

Yeah, if you want them to look ugly and thuggish just call them "Shitliner Gloves", hurt their Conc rating, and reduce the price a bit.

Kyoto Kid

Aug 8 2007, 01:25 AM

Post #19

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

I would argue that you're hampered if you are trying to hold or dribble a ball while making an Unarmed Combat attack. If you weren't trying to manipulate the ball and instead were totally focused on assaulting the other guy there are a whole lot more tactics that fall under Unarmed Combat that would be open to you, including grabbing the other guy's head with one hand and driving your elbow into his face with your other arm, which is specifically not an option if you're holding the ball. Similarly, if you didn't worry about the ball you could judo throw the guy, collapse on him, and grapple him. If you just wanted to strike him you'd have more options without the ball; jab jab cross hook hook uppercut is a lot harder when you're holding the ball.

So I feel like if Unarmed Combat represents the wonderful world of all unarmed forms of attack many of your best routes are going to be compromised if something is already being held in one of your hands.

...I've seen a lot of black eyes and broken noses in basketball games (both pro & college) from elbows being thrown by the guy with the ball (usually held in both hands). Most of the times this happens under the basket with by the player positioning himself to shoot or a defender who has just gone up for a rebound..

As to compromising the attack, A pistol is a lot easier to grip than a 9" diameter hard leather sphere so it would have a lot less effect on being able to throw an elbow or even foerarm strike.

My main point is if you do not use the actual object in hand to strike with, then it would be an unarmed attack.

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Hardliner gloves. Not brass, and a little more subtle, but same idea.

..am aware of these however they did not appear in SR3 until the release of Cannon Companion and still have yet to be seen in SR4 ( Arsenal? maybe?). Brass Knuckles are so basic I feel they should have been included in the core rules.

snowRaven View Member Profile	Aug 8 2007, 10:13 AM Post #20
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516	Well, you could penalize the character holding the ball, I mean gun. -1 die? But, if you penalize the character for only being able to use one arm, ask yourself if you would do the same to a character who had lost an arm and is attacking using no weapons. If not, then what is the difference? I'd say that the character with two arms holding a gun has more options available to him than a one armed man not holding anything...

Critias View Member Profile	Aug 8 2007, 11:04 AM Post #21
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	KK, would you insist on any TN penalty being given to a character who was handcuffed in front of his waist? His hands are about the same distance apart, his arms afforded roughly the same range of motion, as a character holding a basketball. And remember -- just because someone is tossing elbows in a basketball game, and sometimes connects, doesn't mean they'd be effective in a fight. To use Shadowrun terms, that's one guy spending a full-round action to make Athletics checks and try to play basketball, while another guy is whipping out the Unarmed (and catching his opponent flatfooted as if in a Surprise, keeping him from getting to make a countering check). It's not two guys in a fight, it's one guy playing basketball and the other guy taking a swing. Sure, if someone's watching something else, I can bust his nose with my elbow pretty easily. But, y'know, once the brawl breaks out on the court, dude doesn't keep holding onto the ball and kicking ass, does he?

Kyoto Kid

Aug 8 2007, 02:58 PM

Post #22

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QUOTE (Critias)

KK, would you insist on any TN penalty being given to a character who was handcuffed in front of his waist? His hands are about the same distance apart, his arms afforded roughly the same range of motion, as a character holding a basketball.

And remember -- just because someone is tossing elbows in a basketball game, and sometimes connects, doesn't mean they'd be effective in a fight. To use Shadowrun terms, that's one guy spending a full-round action to make Athletics checks and try to play basketball, while another guy is whipping out the Unarmed (and catching his opponent flatfooted as if in a Surprise, keeping him from getting to make a countering check). It's not two guys in a fight, it's one guy playing basketball and the other guy taking a swing.

Sure, if someone's watching something else, I can bust his nose with my elbow pretty easily. But, y'know, once the brawl breaks out on the court, dude doesn't keep holding onto the ball and kicking ass, does he?

...for the handcuffed guy I would impose a TN modifier since he has very limited range of motion and handcuffs are fairly painful (I was into political demonstrations back in the old days). possibly +2.

True, the illustration I gave of elbowing in the NBA is pretty much what they rule as "incidental contact", however, there have been players (like Karl Malone) who have on occasion pushed the limits. The damage wouldn't be much, maybe light wound, but that still is a modifier to TNs.

I would determine that holding a gun maybe would not affect the TN inasmuch the power rating of the attack (reduced by say 1). Again not as effective as a full unarmed punch but (particularly in SR4) may still cause a box or two of damage.

Where I am looking at this as being more useful is in defence. The character with the gun is set upon in melee and needs to defend against his opponent's swing, so he blocks it with his forearm. In SRIII he would get a counterattack to knock down the attackers successes and maybe even score a paltry hit. In SR4 it would be a parry or block using his Unarmed DP added to any Dodge skill.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 9 2007, 12:51 AM

Post #23

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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 7 2007, 08:25 PM)

My main point is if you do not use the actual object in hand to strike with, then it would be an unarmed attack.

That's doesn't follow. For example, in arnis, there are a lot of stickfighting techniques that involve trapping or stripping the other guy's stick that rely on use of an empty hand. However, by your logic using such a technique in the context of two men fighting each other with sticks all of a sudden the person on question would be using Unarmed Combat instead of Clubs (escrima sticks).

Similarly, if somebody practices an iado form in which one of the movements is a simultaneous draw of the sword and strike with the sword handle to the face of the opponent, instead of using Edged Weapons (Iaido) you'd claim that he was actually using Clubs.

However, in both the above examples, we're talking systems or theories that facilitate the effective use of escrima sticks and katanas, respectively. The skillset would still be Clubs (escrima sticks) or Edged Weapons (Iaido). Even though there might be the odd grab or the odd butt-slam the combatants are using their bodies and their skills to maximize the effectiveness of their escrima sticks or the katana.

Fortune View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 01:14 AM Post #24
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I don't quite get the problem. If the guy with the pistol is attacked and forced into melee combat (and doesn't want to just suck up the penalty and shoot his attacker), then if he has the Clubs skill he should be able to thump his opponent's skull with the pistol, and if he has the Unarmed skill then he should be able to hoof his assailant in the nuts.

Kyoto Kid

Aug 9 2007, 01:25 AM

Post #25

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 7 2007, 08:25 PM)

My main point is if you do not use the actual object in hand to strike with, then it would be an unarmed attack.

That's doesn't follow. For example, in arnis, there are a lot of stickfighting techniques that involve trapping or stripping the other guy's stick that rely on use of an empty hand. However, by your logic using such a technique in the context of two men fighting each other with sticks all of a sudden the person on question would be using Unarmed Combat instead of Clubs (escrima sticks).

Similarly, if somebody practices an iado form in which one of the movements is a simultaneous draw of the sword and strike with the sword handle to the face of the opponent, instead of using Edged Weapons (Iaido) you'd claim that he was actually using Clubs.

However, in both the above examples, we're talking systems or theories that facilitate the effective use of escrima sticks and katanas, respectively. The skillset would still be Clubs (escrima sticks) or Edged Weapons (Iaido).

...the examples you mention are a unique fighting style that is based on specific manoeuvres learned in the context of the martial art. I'm just talking about simple out and out brawling for which there is no real defined style.

Based on your example, why then wouldn't the character with the pistol be able to use his Pistols skill to take a swing at his opponent or block with the arm which is holding the weapon? The answer to that is simple, because it is not a part of the standard training in how to use a pistol. Similarly, standard training with a club means learning to hit your opponent with that club and not your arm, elbow, or knee. If it is part of a specialised form of martial arts that specifically combines one weapon type with other forms of attacks as arnis then yes, I can agree with your point.

In a no holds barred brawl however I see things as being a bit simpler. If you strike your opponent with the butt of the pistol, I agree that would be using an improvised club. But if you kick your opponent or block an attack with your forearm that should be covered by Unarmed Combat.

[edit]

@Fortune, Thanks, that is the way I see it too.

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