Living Focus - why the bad rap?

Living Focus - why the bad rap?, Why would you -not- want this power?

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Ranneko

Aug 9 2007, 12:24 AM

Post #26

Moving Target

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QUOTE (WeaverMount)

Especially if you factor in spirits if you mage can summon spirts of man he can have it sustain an any spell he knows on you. He has it preform one remote service on you (constant use of the option power "Any spell know to the caster") and it doesn't even count against his limits, no karma, no powers, no -2s.

Check the errata, that doesn't work, it still counts toward the mage's limits, which means, if the spirit is unbound, that he has given up his one slot for unbount spirits, and given up control of it, a rather bad choice.

James McMurray

Aug 9 2007, 01:40 AM

Post #27

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QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

It's those -2 dice. It's not that it's a bad tradeoff, but most adepts are trying to maximize their dice pool, and anything that works against that is off the table.

I think the -2 dice is a definite cost, but it's a negligible one. the adept is maximizing his dice pools. His -2 is a lot less painful then the mage's -2.

QUOTE

Another part of it is that it requires a mage to cast the spell on you. Teamwork is important, but so is self-reliance.

Shadowrun is an extremely team oriented setup.

QUOTE

I think if it weren't a full Power point, it would be more attractive. It's more of a half point power, if you ask me.

It's definitely expensive. That's why I said "if I can free up the power point." It wasn't my first choice becaues of the large point cost compared to, say, getting +4 dice somewhere.

James McMurray

Aug 9 2007, 01:43 AM

Post #28

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

You're missing the entire -2 Dicepool penalty for every single thing you do while acting as a Living Focus. You may as well just reduce all your attributes by 2 points and use the, what?, 100 or so Build Points to get yourself whatever perks you would have gotten via the spell you want. Particularly in the way of boosted reflexes. Same end effect; -2 dice to almost everything you do.

You've heard, I assume, of Adept Centering?

James McMurray

Aug 9 2007, 01:46 AM

Post #29

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QUOTE

That's the rub. The normal sustaining focus works on anyone/anything, but just for one spell type.

So great, you can give the Adept any sustained spell on his own. Or you can give one spell to anyone.

You can actually do both. That 8 karma the mage saved by not bonding the focus for you? He can spend it bonding a focus to give to you or someone else.

Yay teamwork!

QUOTE

But I wouldn't call it "free" exactly. That power is in place of another power. Where else are you going to get, let's say, +4 to Analyzing crazy problems? Extra dice you can't get anywhere else?

Analytics is first on the chopping block if I take Living Focus. Bonus dice are easy for an adept to get, and those are way too specialized IMO.

QUOTE

Kinesics? Power Throw?

Useless to many builds.

Nobody has said there aren't other powers. No matter what you pick, there will always be stuff you want. That's kinda the thing with adepts.

James McMurray

Aug 9 2007, 01:51 AM

Post #30

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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 8 2007, 04:50 PM)

Yes. And for that 1 point I could have brought something ELSE on the table that you couldn't replicate with a Sustaining Focus and some Karma.

How kind of you to spend someone else's karma for them. What if your character doesn't want to be a drain on his teammate's limited resources?

QUOTE

Let's see +4 to Perception/Assensing tests, +4 to Social tests where you're physically present, +2 Spell Resistance, L4 Analytics which may just help you figure out a problem or deduce something that your GM planted and will love you for, L4 Facial Sculpt which can give you a fairly new face for Magic hours, Traceless Walk, and all the smaller little things that are fun and useful.

so you've proven that there are good adept powers. So what? Whichever one of those you pick, you won't be able to pick any of the others. Sounds like they're all useless according to that logic.

QUOTE

-2 to all my tests or eating once a day and sleeping for 3 hours, quickdrawing any weapon and readying to attack it with one action, and being able to replace a clip with a free action.

Honestly? Those are your options? Have you seen the essence cost on a sleep regulator? Ot the :nuyen: cost on a quick draw holster?

QUOTE

Yes, it's good. No, it's not "free". There are better things that a Mage can't bring to the table with all his spells (or at least undetectable as his spells aren't).

Who said it was free?

Ol' Scratch

Aug 9 2007, 02:04 AM

Post #31

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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 8 2007, 07:43 PM)

You've heard, I assume, of Adept Centering?

And you've heard, I assume, of other modifiers? Especially in combat? And how Adept Centering doesn't eliminate all of them, just a few?

I don't think anyone is saying Living Focus is useless. Only that when compared to most every other adept power, it's one of the weakest especially for the Power Point cost. Doubly so when used in the manner a few people in this thread desire to use it as -- as a form of Improved Reflexes. Sure, it's cheaper than 5 Power Points, but you're not only getting less bang for your buck (+3 Initiative vs. +3 Reaction), but you're also suffering that -2 dicepool modifier on every single thing you do. That includes Quick Draw tests, Combat Tests, Skill Tests, and Social Tests.

If that limitation s fine by you, as well as all the other negatives that come from having a sustaining focus (being unable to walk through a ward without a test, being dual-natured and vulnerable to attack [or is that legacy thinking again?], being a link back to the mage who cast it, leaving behind the mage's astral signature, etc.) knock yourself out with Living Focus.

Me? I'd rather spend the point elsewhere or just give it up entirely and get a set of real Skillwires 5 or Synaptic Booster 2.

Marwynn

Aug 9 2007, 02:30 AM

Post #32

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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 8 2007, 08:46 PM)

QUOTE

That's the rub. The normal sustaining focus works on anyone/anything, but just for one spell type.

So great, you can give the Adept any sustained spell on his own. Or you can give one spell to anyone.

You can actually do both. That 8 karma the mage saved by not bonding the focus for you? He can spend it bonding a focus to give to you or someone else.

Yay teamwork!

QUOTE

But I wouldn't call it "free" exactly. That power is in place of another power. Where else are you going to get, let's say, +4 to Analyzing crazy problems? Extra dice you can't get anywhere else?

Analytics is first on the chopping block if I take Living Focus. Bonus dice are easy for an adept to get, and those are way too specialized IMO.

QUOTE

Kinesics? Power Throw?

Useless to many builds.

Nobody has said there aren't other powers. No matter what you pick, there will always be stuff you want. That's kinda the thing with adepts.

Well of course both options are stronger than one or the other.

I guess I'm just not saying this clearly. But then again, another 8 karma would mean the Adept wouldn't have to spend X karma increasing his magic/getting initiated.

I know Mages are already hard-up on Karma so it's not like it's an easy thing, but Mages are a lot more versatile than Adepts. And I pointed out Kinesics/Power Throw/Analytics as a varied sampling of the different kind of Adepts and what they can bring to the table that they can't get elsewhere. And where a sustained spell would be astrally spotted, disabled by a Ward, or plain old dispelled.

Tell me this then, in what combat situation (let's face it, that's what we're all thinking about) would it be beneficial for an Adept to sustain a spell himself instead of having a Mage sustain it for him or through a focus for him? If he doesn't have Improved Reflexes but has Improved Combat Ability to negate the -2 penalty, then you may have something there.

If your retort is that a Mage and an Adept with both Living Focus and a Foci will rule, well a Mage with two Focii can do the same thing. With anyone.

As a mage I really would rather dump the Karma into a solid Manipulation, Illusion or a Health sustaining focus than not have the Adept enhance himself directly. Great, I can cast any beneficial sustained spell on you. I could've done that with a few more runs and you could've gotten something nicer, like I dunno, Improved Combat Ability.

From a min-max perspective Adept Power Points are far rarer than Karma is.

For example, a soft-maxed Adept with Magic 5 is going to need 18 Karma to raise Magic to 6. Meanwhile a Mage who wants to sustain Increase Reflexes spends 12 Karma to bind a Rating 3 focus for Health. Though admittedly it'd only be really useful for that one spell as the other Health sustained spells aren't really what you'd call 'handy'.

The tradeoff is that it's a one time investment of 18 karma for any spell to run on the adept. Wunderbar! you say. Great, for the adept. Maybe the group by extension. If you plan things that closely and don't mind the metagaming of it all, it can lead to something strong. But it does lose flexibility. And that Adept could've been a better whatever-kind-of-Adept he without the use of sustaining spells.

Maybe I'm just projecting a wariness of planning such characters far too closely like that. It builds dependency and a crafty GM will introduce you to situations where that might not be possible.

Like all of those Awakened out there who settled for Sustained Foci for Increase Reflexes and were thrust against a wagemage with a high counterspelling skill, thrust in an area of high mana background count, a warded place, or some bound spirits that like the look of sustained focii. Instead of the slightly more reliable 'ware route.

They're both perfectly okay. One requires a lot of ifs and maybes, the other can be turn on or is always on.

QUOTE

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 8 2007, 04:50 PM)

Yes. And for that 1 point I could have brought something ELSE on the table that you couldn't replicate with a Sustaining Focus and some Karma.

How kind of you to spend someone else's karma for them. What if your character doesn't want to be a drain on his teammate's limited resources?

I thought so myself. But here we are pooling resources. That was the gist of it all wasn't it? Extreme coordination?

Or did your Adept learn to manifest a Living Focus aspect of his talent on the off chance he might meet a friendly mage with the proper spells to enhance his particular brand of Adept-ness?

The point is, he's not a drain (heh) on anyone's resources if he contributes something in its place.

Weaken me with a strong sustained spell slightly with a -2 penalty, or I can bring something that the team might not have in supply.

That was the whole point of 'coordinating' and 'cooperating' right?

QUOTE

Let's see +4 to Perception/Assensing tests, +4 to Social tests where you're physically present, +2 Spell Resistance, L4 Analytics which may just help you figure out a problem or deduce something that your GM planted and will love you for, L4 Facial Sculpt which can give you a fairly new face for Magic hours, Traceless Walk, and all the smaller little things that are fun and useful.

so you've proven that there are good adept powers. So what? Whichever one of those you pick, you won't be able to pick any of the others. Sounds like they're all useless according to that logic.

No, not at all. It's all in place of one or the other. The point is you're bringing something to the table that doesn't rely on someone else, you know being a drain on someone, and can positively contribute to your role.

You didn't take Living Focus and turn into a battery for your group's mage. You know can walk quietly or turn your hands into flaming fists or turn into Sherlock Holmes and piece together different clues.

No, you won't be able to pick the others. But there's one less out of the jumble of good adept powers that you won't have to worry about not having.

QUOTE

-2 to all my tests or eating once a day and sleeping for 3 hours, quickdrawing any weapon and readying to attack it with one action, and being able to replace a clip with a free action.

Honestly? Those are your options? Have you seen the essence cost on a sleep regulator? Ot the :nuyen: cost on a quick draw holster?

Uh huh. A holster holds a pistol. Quickdrawing any weapon is quickdrawing any weapon. The Essence cost of a 10,000 :nuyen: Sleep Regulator is HUGE.

Why? You pay a freaking Magic point for it. No dice.

QUOTE

Yes, it's good. No, it's not "free". There are better things that a Mage can't bring to the table with all his spells (or at least undetectable as his spells aren't).

Who said it was free?

I believe someone said something along the lines of 0 :nuyen: and 0 karma.

Shinobi Killfist View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 02:37 AM Post #33
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872	At 1`P I dont think I'd ever want to take it. On the other hand doing things like sustaining a bunch of physical mask spells for the team is really hard for a non-optimized mage. A team of 4 means -8 dice to all actions and -6 dice when trying to cast the last physical mask spell. If its a team of 5 your at -8 dice for that last cast, a lot of mages might have to blow edge at the point just to get the ability to roll. Any spells where you would be sustaining them on the whole team this helps the mage out a lot with. Other than that I just dont see the use, so at 1 PP I'd say its out of consideration.

klinktastic View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 02:51 AM Post #34
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442	Can someone answer my question of if you can cast the Area Effect Invisibility that can be sustained on the adept in question? That might prove useful.

Marwynn View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 03:14 AM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093	Well there aren't any spells that are Area of Effect Invisibility spells. Theoretically, you can cast an Improved Invisibility spell that was cast over several people, splitting the dice between the number you want the spell on, then maybe handing it off to your Adept with the Living Focus to sustain. The "spell" would be the multi-targetted spell. It'd be similar to having an Illusion Sustaining Focus at whatever force you cast it at. Of course, you'd need to be a helluva good mage to get enough net hits to make it difficult for each person to not be seen by getting high enough thresholds. But if you're thinking about a "cloak" that the Adept has around him as an area of effect sustained spell, I don't see why not. If you can make a spell like it that just blankets living things near the target to go invisible... that'd be up to your GM though. Easier to summon a spirit and Conceal everyone.

Ancient History View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 03:15 AM Post #36
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	There are a couple of fun tricks you can pull of with Living Focus that would be difficult, if not impossible to do otherwise. For one thing, nothing in the power description says the magician casting the spell needs to "let it go"-the adept can just start concentrating and skedaddle, taking the sustained spell with her. This can be especially interesting because the caster's astral signature will remain as long as the spell is sustained. Granted, the scenarios where this would be most practical are rare, but here are a few: You hire a magician to cast a sustained spell on you and have them sustain it for one hour, then sustain it yourself when the magician drops it. The spell maintains an active link to the caster, which allows you to track her. A magician assassin targeting the adept that casts a Decrease spell on her. By maintaining the spell herself and escaping, the adept can have the astral signature identified and figure out who the magician is. A suicide-bomber adept sustains a ritual-cast Illusion spell, allowing her to penetrate her enemy's compound and then allow herself to be the target of a ritual Fireball spell to kill her (and, hopefully, the enemy). In the middle of a magical war, a healing magician casts Stabilize on heavily-wounded adepts and they sustain the spell on themselves until the effects become permanent. A magician with the flexible signature metamagic casts a spell on a friendly adept with the forged signature of the enemy magician. The adept stumbles to the police and collapses, releasing the spell: the forensic magicians believe that the enemy magician has cast a harmful spell and arrests them. An adept has to run a particular guantlet (a security system, an ancient ruin filled with magical traps, etc.) and has to be able to turn her sustained spells (like Geck Crawl or Glue) off at the correct time...or the adept dies. Imagine needing to hold on to that train until just the right moment. The adept manages to score a jar of the magical compound Sage and uses her Living Focus power to extend the duration of the spell. A mystic adept with an animal companion lends it Living Focus using the Empower Animal metamgic so that it can maintain one of her spells for her.

Dizzman View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 03:34 AM Post #37
Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 25-March 07 Member No.: 11,306	Living focus is a good and interesting power that could use just a couple of tweaks to make it more worthwhile. Just dropping the -2 modifier or reducing the cost to .5 of a power point would make it a strong contender on my list for magical adepts. If you did both, I would take it for regular adepts as well. Put in on my wish list for SR5. :) I also miss the twinkiness of deep rooting from SOTA 2064. Now that was a bad ass power both for combat effectiveness and for looking like a character out of a John Woo movie. :)

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 03:36 AM Post #38
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Reason why 99% of all adepts will take Living Focus if given the chance: Orgasm is a sustained spell.

Wasabi

Aug 9 2007, 08:25 AM

Post #39

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Reason why 99% of all adepts will take Living Focus if given the chance: Orgasm is a sustained spell.

BWWAHAHAHA!!!
(Sorry to not saying anything constructive but **mn thats funny stuff!)

Wasabi

Aug 9 2007, 08:27 AM

Post #40

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QUOTE (Marwynn)

Easier to summon a spirit and Conceal everyone.

And far better since the Concealment power affects all perception tests not just visual.

Eleazar View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 12:08 PM Post #41
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130	Use psyche to turn that -2 into a -1. As far as Living Focus having a bad rep, I think it is all about opportunity cost. What else could I get for this 1 power point, and would it be more beneficial? If this power was cheaper, I think more people would be picking it up.

James McMurray

Aug 9 2007, 02:17 PM

Post #42

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Rather than repeat myself answering questions I've already answered, I'll just say "reread my posts if you have a question. The answers are already there."

I'm not saying that LF is the best choice available. Far from it. What I'm saying is that it's a decent choice, and it means you're not asking your mage buddy to dump 6+ karma into something you'll be wanting to use constantly.

A few that didn't already have answers:

QUOTE

As a mage I really would rather dump the Karma into a solid Manipulation, Illusion or a Health sustaining focus than not have the Adept enhance himself directly. Great, I can cast any beneficial sustained spell on you. I could've done that with a few more runs and you could've gotten something nicer, like I dunno, Improved Combat Ability.

Do you not understand the meaning of "you can do both?" There's nothing stopping you from also getting a manipulation, illusion, or health focus just because the adept was nice to you and got LF.

QUOTE

Maybe I'm just projecting a wariness of planning such characters far too closely like that. It builds dependency and a crafty GM will introduce you to situations where that might not be possible.

How does this not apply to sustaining foci?

QUOTE

Or did your Adept learn to manifest a Living Focus aspect of his talent on the off chance he might meet a friendly mage with the proper spells to enhance his particular brand of Adept-ness?

What does back story matter in a balance discussion?

QUOTE

Uh huh. A holster holds a pistol. Quickdrawing any weapon is quickdrawing any weapon. The Essence cost of a 10,000 Sleep Regulator is HUGE.

0.15 is huge? Maybe if you plan on being pristine in the cyber/bioware department. But most adepts I've seen go for at least one point of magic loss for cool toys. If your style is different, that's cool.

QUOTE

I believe someone said something along the lines of 0 and 0 karma.

That's not the same as free.

Marwynn

Aug 9 2007, 02:35 PM

Post #43

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QUOTE

Do you not understand the meaning of "you can do both?" There's nothing stopping you from also getting a manipulation, illusion, or health focus just because the adept was nice to you and got LF.

I did. You skipped the part where I mention it. Great, you can do both. Whatever.

And I am not saying LF is a bad choice. It's just a suboptimal one.

We vary on just how bad or how good it is.

QUOTE

0.15 is huge? Maybe if you plan on being pristine in the cyber/bioware department. But most adepts I've seen go for at least one point of magic loss for cool toys. If your style is different, that's cool.

Yes, it's huge. A Physical adept will go for Synaptic Boosters 2 which is a full point of Essence most likely.

If you can squeeze it in with Tailored Pheromones, if you're a Social Adept then fine. But it's still just 3 hours of sleep. Sustenance does let you get away with just one meal and one trip to the bathroom.

But anyway that's too dependent on the actual adept at hand. Assuming no previous 'ware, it's huge. Assuming a combat-centric adept, it'll go over the limit. I don't know if you can fit cultured Muscle Toner 2, Synaptic Boosters 1, and SleepRegulator into 1 Essence point. I think he goes over by a small tad, so you're looking at Beta Sleep Regulators there.

It's potentially huge. Unless you're not gonna go after the juicy 'ware.

QUOTE

Maybe I'm just projecting a wariness of planning such characters far too closely like that. It builds dependency and a crafty GM will introduce you to situations where that might not be possible.

How does this not apply to sustaining foci?

You did ignore all the parts where I said sustaining foci have the same problems?

You know, like the very next line of what you quoted?

"Like all of those Awakened out there who settled for Sustained Foci for Increase Reflexes and were thrust against a wagemage with a high counterspelling skill, thrust in an area of high mana background count, a warded place, or some bound spirits that like the look of sustained focii. Instead of the slightly more reliable 'ware route."

QUOTE

That's not the same as free.

Oh I see. No, I don't.

Backgammon

Aug 9 2007, 02:41 PM

Post #44

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QUOTE (klinktastic)

Could you sustain an area invisibility on said adept? Just have him walk around eminating a sphere of invisibility?

Yes and no.

Yes, he could sustain the spell.

No, it would not create a sphere of invisibility, because that's not how the spell works.

James McMurray

Aug 9 2007, 03:23 PM

Post #45

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QUOTE (Marwynn)

QUOTE

That's not the same as free.

Oh I see. No, I don't.

Free means no cost. LF has a cost, it's just not monetary or karma. Those other costs have been talked about in almost every post in this thread.

If you still don't see, I don't think I can ever explain it to you.

Marwynn View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 04:38 PM Post #46
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093	You know, you make it sound like I don't know that there's a BP cost behind it all when I've gone through two pages stating just that. In fact, my entire argument is that there is a better way to spend those resources. Let's leave this as it is.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 04:50 PM Post #47
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	You're the one that said you didn't see how 0 karma and 0 money wasn't the same as 0 cost. If you knew it wasn't the same, why say that you don't see it?

Mr. Unpronouncea...

Aug 9 2007, 05:52 PM

Post #48

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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 9 2007, 03:15 AM)

In the middle of a magical war, a healing magician casts Stabilize on heavily-wounded adepts and they sustain the spell on themselves until the effects become permanent.

I don't normally disagree with Ancient, but I don't think this'd work: if you need stabilize you're not conscious, and if you're not conscious, you can't use a power. OTOH, it would let the mage cast a lot of healing spells in relatively short order, as long as he can handle the drain.

Ancient History View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 06:17 PM Post #49
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	Okay, not the best-thought-out example in the world. [/edit]But the concept is sound. Would work for Antidote, Crank, Cure Disease, Detox, Heal, Healthy Glow, Intoxication, Nutrition, and Resist Pain.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Aug 9 2007, 08:17 PM Post #50
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Of course, there is the opposite problem with the the Focus Adept army. An enemy magician can simply cast Control Thoughts or Mob Mind, have the Focus Adepts sustain the mental manipulations, and repeat until the entire army is under the control of a single enemy magician. Periodic willpower tests make this more difficult, though there is the completely broken possibility of a magician using the spells to make sure that the targets never attempt to resist. :vgem:

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