 Smartlink question |
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 Aug 13 2007, 01:05 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313  |
Example #1: I'm in dark hall I have therm, using smartlink. Will smartlink work I can see my target but can the smartlink?
Example #2: Hunkered down behind a wall, holding Predator up over wall using smartlink to fire into light smoke,rain in dim light. Question does my smartlink need vision enhancements? Can put smartlink on scope with enhancements? |
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Aug 13 2007, 01:37 PM
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#2
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
1: You would suffer the normal penalties for termo vision in a dark hall way and get the bonus from the Smartlink.
2: I would apply all penalties for environmental conditions to this test as well. -- Removed, as I was proven wrong -- |
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Aug 13 2007, 01:39 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
As per page 311 of the BBB, the "small camera" that's installed on the gun can be equipped with vision enhancement. That would imply that, by default, it isn't.
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Aug 13 2007, 01:40 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
Guess to clarify question, does using smartlink in examples nullify your personal vision enhancements? And if so whats the fix?
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Aug 13 2007, 01:47 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Logically, if it's the smartgun system that's highlighting enemies, then it would only work against enemies it detects. Based on that, you could make a good argument that it simply doesn't get the smartgun bonus against anything which the gun's camera can't see (keeping in mind that, if it's shipping you video data, there's no terribly good reason why you can't ship it video data if your vision is better and has the same FoV). This brings up the interesting question - is it a viable option to install vision enhancements in the gun, and then use those to negate vision penalties rather than your own eyes? Lets say you had smart-goggles with smartlink and image link. Now say that the gun's camera has been upgraded with thermo and low-light, but neither you nor your goggles have. The gun projects a window into your vision detailing what it sees - and in this case, is there a good reason why it shouldn't be an overlay showing enhanced vision? Never thought about these implications before. |
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Aug 13 2007, 01:55 PM
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#6
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Well ... color me embarassed :oops: Thanks, neko!
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Aug 13 2007, 01:59 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Nothing to be embarassed about. I'm not a writer or dev; it's entirely possible they'll come here and start pointing and laughing at my answers. :P |
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Aug 13 2007, 02:00 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
If all a smartgun link is doing is putting crosshairs or object highlighting, then why does a smartgun system cost essence/capacity? If it isn't using your cyberware image systems and all the processing is done on the smartgun accessory, can't you just use an image link instead of a smartgun link and get all the features of the image link too? In other words, what good is a cyberware smartgun link?
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Aug 13 2007, 02:01 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
In almost all cases you can argue that smartlink simply puts crosshair onto your normal augmented vision. Trouble comes when using weapon for fire around corners and such.
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Aug 13 2007, 02:04 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the same reason you might choose to have cybereyes instead of wearing contacts, glasses, or goggles (well... provided you're not a mage, the same reasons anyways) |
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Aug 13 2007, 02:43 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I have always thought that smartguns used an invisible laser beam, and the eye/goggle part just located the laser spot and painted a FPS-like reticle around it. If this is correct, then the gun can almost always see its dot, even if you can't see what the dot is on. I would say the camera only comes into effect when shooting around corners. |
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Aug 13 2007, 03:43 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
No because you still have to put a smartgun system in your gun, no matter if you have a cyber smartgun link or a goggle smartgun link. What the heck is the smartgun link doing if the smartgun system on the gun is doing all the work? |
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Aug 13 2007, 03:52 PM
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#13
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Echo Prime Mover and Ed. The only reason for putting image enhancements onto the gun are for using the gun cam to fire around corners (or in other situations where you are not or can not use your own eyes to view the target). If you're in a dark hallway, but you can see the target using vision mods in your eyes/contacts/goggles/glasses, then you see the target and can use a SL on it. If you are pointing your gun around the corner down a dark hallway, and your guncam has image enhancements, you can see the target, assuming you manage to point the weapon at it. I would not grant SL bonuses, for reasons outlined below.
SL has never been a magical target acquisition system, I don't see why it would start now. If you can't "detect" an enemy, you can't point the gun at it to see whether the SL "detects" the enemy. As to using just the gun cam with image enhancements to acquire and fire on targets, it could work, but you wouldn't be getting a SL bonus, for the same reason that you shouldn't when using the gun cam for firing around a corner. (The SL depends on being able to show you, in your natural (your eyes, regardless of modification; we're talking about where the front of your head is pointing) field of vision, where the muzzle of the weapon is pointing. If the gun and field of vision, provided by the gun cam, are moving around in tandem, then the SL can no longer show you where it's pointing in that field of vision, since the device providing the feedback to generate the crosshair is also moving around with the muzzle of the weapon. To see what I mean, first hold your hand out palm up. That's your normal field of vision (with or without vision mods). Now, move your other index finger around on your palm. That's the SL, which is fixed to your weapon, showing you where the muzzle is pointing. Now, hold out your hand palm up, and place your finger in the center. Then, move them both around, but keeping your finger in the center of your palm. That's what happens when you stick your weapon around a corner, or otherwise depend on a field of vision being provided by a weapon-mounted imaging system. I have seen a lot of other interpretations, but none of them are sufficiently backed by rules or fluff, in any edition, for me to consider them viable. That doesn't mean they don't work or aren't cool options, just that I don't agree and that this is my interpretation.) |
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Aug 13 2007, 03:55 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That's what the smartgun system on the gun is doing. What is the smartgun link in your goggles or cybereyes doing?
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Aug 13 2007, 03:57 PM
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#15
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Displaying, in your vision, the information provided by your SL: namely, the crosshair, ammo count, whatever else is there. By itself, when you're not holding a weapon with a smartgun system? It's not doing anything.
If you get a chance, take a look in Man & Machine. It breaks down the individual components of the Smartlink system and describes the part they play in the overall picture. (For example, if you had a 3e character with an Image link, then you didn't need the part of the Smartlink system that went in your eyes, since you already had it.) |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:05 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
So if you have an image link you don't need a smartgun link? But isn't a smartgun link a lot more expensive than a smartgun link? (i think it's more essence too, but i'm away from books right now) Why in the world would someone buy a smartgun link when an image link does the same job but gives lots more features and for a lower price?
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Aug 13 2007, 04:13 PM
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#17
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Keep in mind that I'm talking about 3rd edition stuff, and that the breakdown of components, if it's not in Augmentation (I don't know if it's in Aug or not, since I haven't had time to read it yet) and it's slated for SR4 at all, is likely going to be in Arsenal.
I expect it to be much the same as it was in M&M, but right now, use what I'm saying strictly as reference material for my position on SL bonuses when using weapon-mounted imaging systems. |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:15 PM
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#18
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
There are two parts to any smartgun system. Gun part + Vision Part or You must buy p.111 Smart Gun system + you must buy p. 324 Smart Link You must buy Image Link to use a Smart Link (p. 324 "Requires an image link.") |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:19 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
With a smartgun and an image link, I think you would get the reticle, but that is all. Without the simsence elements of the SG system you have little more than a really expensive laser sight.
Realisticly, you would have more than the +1 die for a regular laser sight, but not enough to qualify for the +2 for a SG link. 1.4 lets say. Rounds down to 1. What the SG link has over the Image link is the DNI interface. The gun goes "bang!" when you think "Bang!" not when you pull the trigger (though you could probably pull the trigger too). |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:26 PM
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#20
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
There's no difference between implanted smartlinks and smartlinks in other devices except that with an impanted cyberlink you can in fact fire with a mental command, because implanted cyberware comes with DNI.
Otherwise there is no other modifier between an implanted smartlink vessus one in your glasses. |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:28 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
As for why the smart link takes essence: try this explanation on for size
The smartlink does much more than simply place a reticle over the target. If it were that simple an aimpoint sight would provide the same bonus. Try closing your eyes and touching the tip of your nose with the tip of your finger. You can do it right? It there any though involved? Did you have to go through any careful, last minute manuvering to brign your finger into contact with your nose? Nope. The smart link makes shooting people just like touching your nose. There is no targeting reticle in your vision. You have a smart link, you know where your weapon is going to hit. |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:28 PM
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#22
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Smartlinks require an Image Link. Says so in the book, p. 124. Therefore I rashly conclude an image link by itself does not provide any targeting bonus, even if you have a smartgun system on your gun. Of course, you can conclude there are advantages to poking your gun around a corner and seeing what's there without exposing yourself. |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:32 PM
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#23
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Smartlinks take essence only if implanted, and only if implanted when the capicity exceeds the device they are implanted into.
You can implant a smartlink by itself, this costs essence because it is implanted. If you have cybereyes, they have 4 capacity, and a smartlink option takes three capacity, there is no extra essence in this case. Exactly like a whole bunch of other visual system implants. It is no different then adding Flare COmpensation or Low Light to cybereyes. |
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Aug 13 2007, 04:34 PM
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#24
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Note that getting Low Light cyber implant costs essence. Why does this costs essence? Whatever you argue for a direct low light cyber implant costing essence applies to the smart link implant.
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Aug 13 2007, 04:34 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Yes, well. Was much happier when the smartlink required a limited simsense rig to give the whole bonus.
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