 The Limits of Movement, Planck, Einstein, and Howling Coyote |
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 Aug 14 2007, 08:54 PM
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#51
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence  Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715  |
Well sure. The superset consisting of a finite number of infinite sets is, itself, an infinite set. |
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Aug 14 2007, 09:01 PM
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#52
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The number of infinite sets can be described as: Lim n->∞ n^n Which is infinite. This can easily be proven with infinitesimals. Let us consider the set of all real numbers between 1 and 2. We have an infinite set of infinitessimal values between 1 and 2. But let us further condense that set and only take the set of all numbers between 1 and 1.1. This set is also infinite. The set between 1.0 and 1.01 is also infinite. And so on. There exists, in Scotland, a sheep which is black on at least one side. |
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Aug 14 2007, 09:22 PM
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#53
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...whew! Thanks for the clarification. Thought for a minute me cerebral implant was reaching critical mass now.
...I think I met him, bought me a couple o drams o' malt whiskey at a local pub he did. |
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Aug 14 2007, 09:23 PM
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#54
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Okay, fair. I assume that's the case ab initio given the massive number of arguments for it (philosophically speaking) and the relatively few and unconvincing number against it (philosophically speaking, again). And also because that's the kinda guy I am. |
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Aug 14 2007, 09:38 PM
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#55
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
My head hurts!
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Aug 14 2007, 09:48 PM
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#56
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, you got that backwards. The uncertainty principle does not require a system to be non-deterministic - it makes it non-deterministic. |
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Aug 14 2007, 10:06 PM
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#57
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
On a more mundane note, I would personally rule that no application of magic can break certain fundamentals of physics, such as the speed of light. I wouldn't let magic let your transmit data FTL, let you catalog what matter/information is within an event horizon, or wholesale destroy matter. In this case destruction means 'remove from existance totally' rather than 'convert into other form that totally sucks like you do with Toxic Wave'.
That's because all the stuff that magic does within SR is stuff that some other source could also do, though usually with more outward effort. Allowing the end effetcs of magic to circumvent laws that as far as we are aware are involate opens a huge can of worms. It's not the source that concerns me but the end effect. That's also why if someone tried to Astral Gateway their way into FTL, I'd make sure their metaplanar time would exactly equal the time it'd take for light to reach their end destination. A crude hack, but my only recourse. |
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Aug 14 2007, 11:03 PM
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#58
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The uncertainty principal only applies to individual particles. When particles interact with each other to form a system of macroscopic scale, the resulting macroscopic system obeys classical and relativistic physics, which are deterministic. |
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Aug 14 2007, 11:20 PM
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#59
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It is described by deterministic theories... that does not make it deterministic.
Errors only accumulate. |
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Aug 15 2007, 03:57 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
It's not a proper "data transmission", but any of the telepathy spells breaks FTL, and spirits effectively break FTL with shortcuts. I could see a case where a highly trained ally inhabiting a merge could recreate with Edit what a mind/sense-linked scientist (or their master) was seeing on Mars with just a few seconds delay (and a much lower degree of fidelity--don't expect the spirit to hack out trid in real-time). If you start using high-powered spirits on arcology ships to explore AC (or even just Jupiter), spells like mindlink/mindnet that are made permanent (with karma or ally sustaining) will be critical. Hmmm. Anyone want to fly with an ally named HAL? |
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Aug 15 2007, 06:12 AM
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#61
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I have yet to see any evidence that spirit shortcuts or telepathy breaks FTL. It would be more accurate to say they go goddamn fast but slower than light, in my book. And what I am saying in addition to that is that even if they do, I won't let them in my game.
Even supposing you could set up a situation in which astral gate would allow FTL, I would force the transit time to deep metaplane and back out to take infinitesimally longer than a photon's ordinary journey would have. |
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Aug 15 2007, 07:06 AM
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#62
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
why in the world would the speed of light apply to the astral plane? light doesn't even exist there.
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Aug 15 2007, 07:21 AM
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#63
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
It's not the astral plane that concerns me, it's the effects on the physical world. People can go faster than the speed of light in the astral all they want, but when they try to convey information to people using the C constant, we have problems. Namely because of the causality paradoxes it raises.
And also because Shadowrun doesn't need no goddamn teleportation. |
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Aug 15 2007, 07:54 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Telepathy is instantaneous. There's no delay there. There isn't any if you're standing right next to each other, and there isn't if one of you is climbing Olympus Mons. If you're going to insist on a delay for telepathy, then you're going to have to explain that the spell works using radio-like waves, and then explain why other mages can't see or listen in to those waves.
And, shortcuts are also supposed to be pretty instantaneous. If they're restricted to the speed of light in *this* plane, it'd seem kinda odd. When you get down to it, a shortcut is really exactly the same concept as hyperspace--the spirit travels to a place from which it can make a very short journey, and then emerge back into realspace farther away from its starting point than it could have covered in the same amount of time. EDIT: Oh, and don't forget that here and now quantum entanglement technically violates c for transmitting data--except that they have no idea (yet) how to make practical use of that. |
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Aug 15 2007, 08:07 AM
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#65
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Drones. |
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Aug 15 2007, 09:54 AM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 25-July 07 Member No.: 12,354 |
Actually, quantum entanglement can't transmit information. The very act of observation of one particle forces the observed particle to collapse into a single spin-up or spin-down state, which makes the entangled particle collapse into the opposite state. And because you can't predict which way it will spin, the other side can't tell whether the particle collapsed into a single state without observing it. Now, if you use this in tandem with normal methods of information transfer, it would work; but then you're right back to being limited to transmitting information at the speed of light.
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Aug 15 2007, 02:03 PM
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#67
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Binary information could still be sent. Every n time you observe a particle. If it has already collapsed, then the people on the far side sent their message. I wouldn't send encrypted jpegs that way, but you can do all the 1 if by land, 2 if by sea crap that you want over arbitrary distances. -Frank |
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Aug 15 2007, 02:35 PM
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#68
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 25-July 07 Member No.: 12,354 |
The problem with that is that you can't tell if a particle has already collapsed, as that would require prior observation. There isn't a moment of fuzziness as the particle 'settles' into a single state when you observe it. It's automatically in the state as you observe it, and whether it collapsed earlier is indistinguishable. And it's still not possible to choose what state it collapses into when you observe it (and thus collapse it).
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Aug 15 2007, 05:43 PM
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#69
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Not to extend the discussion into physics, but Virgileso has it in one. In a sci-fi game I wrote I had to handwave a device that keeps that state collapse from happening specifically so FTL communication could happen...
So let me ask you, how do you know it's instantaneous instead of just very, very fast? Is it instant in physics terms, or instant in conventional terms? Because conventionally speaking, my oatmeal is also instant. We haven't seen any evidence that telepathy is either instant or non-instant. There's just no data for it in the game.
And I don't want hyperspace in my Shadowrun. If my Shadowrun was set in 3000, I might. But a dystopian, cyberpunkish game doesn't need FTL, and I don't want it to have FTL. What it boils down to is that you have your opinion and I have mine, but neither of us is right or wrong. The rules do not state magic can go FTL, nor do the rules state telepathy is FTL, nor do they say they're not. I was simply illustrating that in my games, they cannot do these things. In your games, they may be able to. But please don't mistake your opinion for 'the facts about the way the game works.' |
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Aug 15 2007, 09:28 PM
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#70
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If errors did accumulate, then the Newtonian model of physics would no longer be remotely functional. The fact that it still accurately describes the motion of macroscopic objects suggests that odd quantum phenomena are self-correcting in macroscopic systems. As for the metaplanes as hyperspace, it isn't exactly useful. You can use the metaplanes to instantly transport things that don't have bodies if they have a mystical with something which is already at the destination. There are two problems with this. 1: Most things worth transporting do have bodies. 2: If you can already transport something that is magically linked to the thing you are transporting to the destination reasonable amount of time, then it would probably be more efficient to just transport the thing you are transporting directly to the destination. So, if you summoned and bound a spirit while on Earth, you can go to Mars and call it to you without having to worry about it being disrupted in space. That's pretty much it. Also, Free Spirits can take messages between planets, since they can be summoned through the metaplanes by anyone who knows their names. |
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Aug 15 2007, 11:42 PM
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#71
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed. And it's only functional on a specific scale, with enough tolerances. That does not mean that the errors are non-existant... it means that you can ignore them for the simple stuff. After all, the Newtonian model usually ignores friction. |
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Aug 16 2007, 01:34 AM
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#72
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's what i mean. telepathy is a wholly astral phenomenon, so why should it be limited to the speed of light? the only limiting factor is going to be how fast you can get download the data from the telepathic brain--that process will certainly be slower than c, but it won't matter because ideally the brain won't be any significant distance from the data receptacle. |
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