 Spirit Movement power vs Vehicles, how does this work? |
  |
 Aug 14 2007, 09:43 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl  Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490  |
...the Marathon Precision™ employs Slipstream Injsction Boost®. In effect the shape of the craft itself is it's hypersonic to orbital transition engine. Think of it as the ultimate afterburner.
|
 |
 
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 10:04 PM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 254 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,768 |
Well, I know how a ramjet works, but I imagine at least someone would have the idea of using a cheaper plane and some magical assistence. As I said, it would make for a nice bit of color and a plot hook or two.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 10:54 PM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It has been a point of open speculation since First Edition: Why do suborbitals even exist? You've been able to outrun them with 757s and spirit movement since at least 2050. We know that DocWagon ambulances take advantage of this, but noone has really come up with a great explanation for why suborbital transport happens. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 14 2007, 11:01 PM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Could have something to do with insurance. Spirit Aid might be considered unreliable for the purposes of passenger transit.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 11:16 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Cheap game hack I've put on all my games since forever: spirits can only affect their force x 50 in cubic meters of space with the movement power. Technically they can affect any whole 'unit', but that opened up the precise issue that Frank mentions. Here's exactly what I do:
Calculate volume of object to be affected. Divide by 50. This is the force of the movement power that must be used. We shall call it X. Determine the force of the movement power being used. It is Y. Subtract X from Y. The result is Z. Z is the maximum number of multipliers that can be placed on the object. An example. We want to make a super-707 aircraft that goes wang fast. It has a volume of about 456 cubic meters (length of 41.25m, radius of 1.875m, plus some wings). Dividing by 50 we discover the result to be "9" once rounded off. Joe the Shaman summons a force 12 spirit, because he wants to go fast. 12-9=3. The maximum multiplier that can be applied to speed is 3. The aircraft goes stupid fast. With a force x 50 cubic meters limit, you need a force 1-2 spirit to snag a basic sedan, though force 1 can affect an average joe. This does allow for smaller vehicles and aircraft to be accellerated, but requires exponentially higher force spirits the bigger your vehicle is. A Ford Taurus would require a force 1 spirit, being only about 12 cubic meters of space. A 747 would require a spirit with over 250 force points, thus preserving the day for suborbitals and whatnot. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 12:35 AM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the concept is called "external burning"and differs from a conventional ramjet in that it uses the shock wave created by the aircraft as the "engine". Even a spirit assisted spaceplane still has to withstand the heat of hypersonic friction with the air and re-entry along with the associated stress factors. The materials alone will make it an expensive bird. And let's just say for the sake of argument, a rogue Lion Shaman banishes the spirit lifting the plane into the suborbital reaches. Suddenly, with no (or inadequate) engines to provide enough thrust for maintaining stability and attitude control in the rarefied atmosphere of suborbital space the plane is pretty much doomed. Remember what happened to Chuck Yeager when he took that rocket assisted F-104 to the fringe of space & had no engine thrust when the rockets were spent? It's called a deep flat spin. The only way to save your bacon is to punch out which I do not think would be an option on a passenger carrying aerospacecraft. Agreed on the plot hook though, it does make for an interesting slant: magoterrorism. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 15 2007, 12:51 AM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Let's just say, for a sake of argument, that a rogue Lion Shaman shoots the plane with a shoulder-launched Surface-to-Air missile.
As magical hazards to airplanes go, the banishing of assisting spirits is a rather small hazard compared to everything else that can go wrong. Hell, any half-assed bocor can just have a spirit possess the pilot and fly the plane into the WTC. A full-assed bocor can have a spirit possess the plane and fly it into the WTC. Really, you have to take some risks. An overcast fireball can potentially take down a airplane, but so can a SAM. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 01:06 AM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 8-September 06 Member No.: 9,334 |
Many thanks all
@Adarael My GM and I were just talking about a similar house rule. Thanks for working the numbers :-) |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:40 AM
Post
#34
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the comment based on the "Cheaper Plane" ideal (e.g. the spirit powered 757 vs. a dedicated suborbital or spaceplane). This infers that the aircraft is totally dependent on the Spirit and not on technology to work properly. Put that 757 at 100,000M altitude and suddenly take it's spirit away (through banishing, spell, or astral combat). At that altitude its flight controls and engines would be totally useless and the fuselage would most likely succumb to catastrophic fatigue due to the extreme pressure differential. Furthermore, messing with the spirit means no incoming bogey and no missile track to show up on sensors. Of course this is in reference to suborbital altitude ops. I guess that 757 could fly at 14,000M but it would make on hell of a sonic boom traveling at double digit mach numbers. As to possessing the pilot, that wouldn't necessarily work if the flight deck or cabin is warded. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:54 AM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
No, you're doing physics again. I'm not even sure if it would show it's real speed or the movement speed to Doppler radar. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 15 2007, 07:48 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
The reason for going suborbital is to dramatically reduce drag so that you can achieve high mach speeds without burning to a crisp from the friction (or wasting massive amounts of fuel if you somehow dump all of that heat).
The point is, with Movement, the widebody tools along at 30K' doing Mach 0.9 Newtonian, but "ground speed" could be 5-10 times as fast. Since nothing else is affected, it's not any louder, and the doppler (radar or sound as heard from the ground) wouldn't shift any farther than it would for something moving at M0.9, and there wouldn't be any sonic boom. So, if you have regular, reliable spirits, there's no point in having suborbitals in the first place. However, that's too big a detail to omit; I have to assume that for some reason or other, there are not enough spirits to go around to do things like that, or it would have been mentioned repeatedly in descriptions of how economies and corps work. And yet, such uses seem far more profitable than what passes for wagemage or even most corp combat mage duties. I've griped about that contradiction before, but I doubt it'll ever be resolved. Too much difference between what the rules allow and what the flavor requires. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 03:35 PM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I tell ya, ever since magic appeared, us physicists get no respect anymore. :(
...now where's that darn cat...? |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:22 PM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
who's to say they don't have spirits powering the suborbitals also?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:36 PM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
All of the data on suborbitals we've been given to date?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:40 PM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I got it...cyberzombies...legions upon legions of cyberzombies to disrupt the manasphere so science can once again reign supreme! :vegm: ...Oh, Benson! I feel the power of evil coursing through my veins, filling every corner of my being with the desire to do wrong! I feel so bad, Benson!..." --the Evil Genius form Time Bandits |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:42 PM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
... until somebody figures out that you can Inhabit a CZ (assuming it's possible, I didn't see an official response to that in an earlier thread). :cyber:
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:47 PM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
You can't inhabit a cyberzombie, you have to posess a cyberzombie. Because though dead, cyberzombies do have a spirit tied to them already.
And any posession attempt on a cyberzombie would be a very short-lived affair, owing both to the zombie's (un)natural karma hazing and the fact that the body would probably die soon after the original spirit was subsumed by the posessor. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 06:13 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Any Possession ends up being a sort of Inhabitation because of the soul-cage keeping the Cyberzombie's spirit in also prevents possessing spirits from leaving.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 06:24 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so the mage actually perpetuates the situation by the possessing spirit keeping the CZ "alive".
...ahh the plot thickens. MWAHAHA! :evil: [edit] ...now back to our regularly scheduled topic... |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 07:16 PM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I must point out that a warded cabin will also protect any spirit providing magical assistance to the plane. I must also point out tat a ward won't prevent a magician with LOS from blowing a wing off with a fireball. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 15 2007, 07:21 PM
Post
#46
|
|||||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...#! ionly if it bonded to the interior of the cabin. If it it outside the plane, it is outside the ward. ...#2 again messy and too visible, just like the SAM. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 15 2007, 07:33 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Why wouldn't it be inside the cabin. It has no more logical reason to be outside the plane that the pilot does.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 07:34 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...but wouldn't the ward interfere with use of its powers then?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 07:48 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
We can assume that ward creator is allowing these spirits to pass through the ward, with also allows their powers to pass through the ward.
They have LOS to the airplane everywhere inside the airplane and, more importantly, it would be difficult for them to keep up with the airplane if they were outside of it. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 08:38 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I thought all they had to do was physically touch the vehicle to use their powers on it. (e.g. an engine, control surface). Or am I thinking old edition SR again?
The thing is ad Big D pointed out, if Spirit assisted flight is so efficient, why do they then still have Suborbitals, HSCTs, and Semi Ballistics? Any corp that operated these would certainly have enough resources to pay mages to bind spirits to existing sub mach aircraft given the fact that physics and stress factors do not come into play. Heck by this token, an ATR 72 turboprop would be just as good as a Grande Concorde. There would be no reason to sink a half billion into the tech to build an SO or spaceplane Years of physics study both in and out of a formal education setting still makes it hard to simply throw out every known law of inertia, motion, and mass becuse "its magic", even if it is for a game. ...which is one of the reasons I don't play mages. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 13th September 2025 - 10:26 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.