Are there any range limits on sustaining powers? |
Are there any range limits on sustaining powers? |
Aug 14 2007, 12:53 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 6-March 06 Member No.: 8,339 |
This came up in a game recently and caused a big "discussion".
As I remember the rules they say that the critter must be on the same plane and within LOS to use most powers but that sustaining the power doesn't require any effort by the critter. I'm paraphrasing I know but I don't have the rules handy right now I'm afraid. However, consider a spirit who conceals/moves a party then dematerializes and travels hundreds of kilometers away on the astral plane. Can the spirit still maintain the power? As far as I've been able to determine the rules don't prohibit it but it conflicts with the way I imagine things working. Any thoughts anyone? |
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 01:30 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'm pretty sure the caster -- spirit or otherwise -- has to stay on the same plane as the target of his spells/powers. Distance isn't an issue, only the plane you're currently on.
I can't say that I recall reading anything about this in the current edition of the game, mind you, so it may have changed. Or I could simply be basing it on a really old house rule. It's much too early for me to make any kind of confident stand on the subject, and my books are inaccessible at the moment to verify. But as I said, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works. |
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 02:09 PM
Post
#3
|
|||
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Critter sustaining a power over a period of time is still "using" it. Therefore
is still true and hence the critter cannot dematerialize and go off astrally and still do the Power. |
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 02:18 PM
Post
#4
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 6-March 06 Member No.: 8,339 |
That makes sense but I don't have the exact wording of the rules handy so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from my paraphrasing. I will be re-reading that bit at the first opportunity though.
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 02:20 PM
Post
#5
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Line of sight isn't a requirement for sustaining, only casting. This is true for critters as well as magicians. Of this much I'm certain. :)
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 02:25 PM
Post
#6
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
The important bit is the same plane thing for sustaining
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 02:27 PM
Post
#7
|
|||
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Hope that helps. -Frank |
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 02:28 PM
Post
#8
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
The other requirement to remember is that if the spirit moves away more then Magic * 100 meters then the service automatically becomes a remote service.
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 02:37 PM
Post
#9
|
|||
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
This is the quote that requires the same plane. LOS isn’t a part of it. Sustaining is affecting… Or as DireRadiant put it sustaining is using… |
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 02:46 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 6-March 06 Member No.: 8,339 |
It does say "use" then. I'd have to agree with DireRadiant in that case.
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 03:40 PM
Post
#11
|
|||
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Negatory. Check the spirit power of "Guard". They have to be on the same plane to activate the power. After that, the spirit is more than allowed to go back to the Astral and continue sustaining the power. This might be an exception (not entirely certain as I don't have time to reference my PDFs) but I do recall reading about this very thing with the Guard power. |
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 03:47 PM
Post
#12
|
|||
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I didn't find anything under Guard, but you might be thinking of this ...
|
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 03:58 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Heh, I read the whole paragraph describing Guard a few times. There is nothing that would indicate that there is anything allowing it's use to cross planes. In fact it is a physical power so unless the spirit is materialized it cannot be used.
|
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 04:45 PM
Post
#14
|
|||||
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
p. 288 "Guard Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained Th e Guard power gives the critter the ability to prevent normal environmental accidents and hazards (both natural and those induced by the Accident power), such as preventing someone from succumbing to heatstroke or saving someone from drowning. Th e Guard power can also be used to prevent a glitch from occurring. Guard may be used on a number of characters at once equal to the critter’s Magic attribute." p. 286 "Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 195). Mana powers do not aff ect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or aff ect astral forms." "Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject to any strain or modifi ers for keeping the eff ect going. Even taking damage will not disrupt these powers’ ability to sustain. Also, line of sight does not have to be maintained aft er the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a number of powers equal to their Magic at one time." What am I missing? |
||||
|
|||||
Aug 14 2007, 04:47 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Okay. The entry for "Guard" doesn't say anything and I can't find the verbage I'm looking for in my SR4 PDF. It's probably in my Street Magic book at home. I'll look it up and reference the page number.
If someone has it (SM) handy in PDF form, do a search for the word "materialize". I know that was used in the paragraph I remember reading. The paragraph was very clear on the spirit would have to Materialize in order to use Guard but could sustain it from the Astral rather than needing to stay in the Physical. |
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 04:52 PM
Post
#16
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
p. 95 Street Magic
"Passive powers such as Astral Form, Energy Aura, or Materialization don’t require the use of services, they are assumed to be included with any other service that requires their use. Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it). Therefore, a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so, and both actions would only require one service (though it might immediately go back to astral plane while sustaining the Guard effect, depending on what other services it was performing at the time)." Amusing. |
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 04:57 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sustaining powers works the same as sustaining spells as far as astrally projecting/materializing/whatever goes.
About the only thing a spirit can't do while keeping a power running is go back to the metaplanes. -Frank |
|
|
Aug 14 2007, 05:04 PM
Post
#18
|
|||
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I do have a question about this part though... Say a spirit uses Guard on Runner A. Then a few minutes later, it has to use Guard on Runner B. Then a few minutes after that, the spirit uses Guard on Runner C. Are those three uses of Guard treated as separate powers for purposes of "Total number of sustained powers" or are they counted as 1 instance? What about if the spirit used Guard on all three runners at the same time? I can see an arguement for both ways. Do we count the number of sustained powers by the number of targeted entities (with singles or groups each counted as an entity) or by the number of times it is used & sustained? |
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 09:08 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Requires 3 services, but is using only 1 power. |
||
|
|||
Aug 14 2007, 10:42 PM
Post
#20
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
As stated three 'services' and 'one' sustain power (for purposed of how many the can sustain). (presuming atleast a force 3 spirit).
Now If you stated: Guard A, B and C, that would be one services (and one sustained power). Since the spirit can guard up to its force in people (assumption force 3+). However changing any of the targets of the power is a new services. So if you decided to change it to: Guard A, B, and D that would be a new service. So you case: Guard A. Guard B. Guard C. As three seperate orders would either: (if spirit doesnt like you) might be taken as: Guard A. (ok one service and A is protected). Guard B. (change target of guard to B, stop guarding A) (another services) Guard C. (change target to C, stop guarding B) (another service). To me though this is very unlikely is word lawyering tends to bog game down. Unless 1) the spirits are very upset with caster, or 2) you (the gm) have any doubt as to the intent of what was wanted. The most likely results it he spirit interrupts the order as: Guard A. (ok one service and A is protected). Guard B. [In addition to guarding A, also guard b] (this is changing the targets of a service which is a new servuce. A&B are guarded one sustained service). Guard C. [In addition to guarding A&B, also guard C] (this is changing the targets of a service which is a new servuce. A&B&C are guarded one sustained service). So three services have been 'used', yet the spirit is only sustaining one power. Now 'kind' GMs might allow a spirit to use the same power multiple times. So for example a force 2 spirit as a service could: Guard A & B (two is the most it can target with the power). as a second service it could Guard C & D (two is the most it can target with a [use] of a power). Now it could guard a third group of people (even if additional services) since it can only sustain its force in powers. If have not seen a clean ruling on the general caveat of a spirit can affect a number of targets equal to its force... If that means total or 'per use' of power. To me since there is a limit already to the number of powers that can be sustained... I dont have any problems with sustaining the same power multiple times. |
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 05:15 PM
Post
#21
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I understand that a command to use X power on Y targets is a single service unless you are issuing three separate commands over a period of time in which case they would each cost a service.
I understand the services costs quite well and have no question there. I was questioning whether three separate commands to use a certain sustained power counts as multiple powers with regards to the maximum number of sustained powers or as a single instance against their maximum number. IOW, does sustaining guard on three separate targets (due to three separate commands to use said power) count as three sustained powers or does it count as one sustained power? A case can be made both ways and RAW is leaving me with little clarity. |
|
|
Aug 15 2007, 09:04 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well technically, it depends how you word the command. If you had the Spirit Guard 1 person, then added another, and then a third (each being a Service), there's no reason why you couldn't word it so that the Spirit is still only using the one (instance of the) Power. If for some reason the Spirit did have reason to be utilizing 2 or 3 separate Guard Powers, then each would count towards the limit. But this shouldn't come up too often with reasonable sized Spirits. |
||
|
|||
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 10:22 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.