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> Religion in the Sixth World, Curiosity wins out....
NightmareX
post Aug 15 2007, 08:08 AM
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Well, it seems yet again, my curiosity is winning out against my better judgment. But before I start in this thread I want to make something very, very clear. I do not intend or desire this to be a religious debate or argument, nor do I intend any insult to anyone with this thread. And I do ask that the mods be particularly draconian to prevent this thread from becoming a war zone or insult fest - especially if I should break my word here.

Rather, I am curious as to what everyone's take on the religious demographics of the Sixth World look like (in relation to the geopolitical situation as well), and the reasoning behind such opinions. I am also curious as to opinions of whether the Awakening would cause major doctrinal changes in various religions or not.

But first the posts that lead up to this:

QUOTE (TheMadDutchman)

People always make the assumption that the JudeoChristian faiths are going to dwindle away and die in Shadowrun but I don't believe it.  Do I believe there would be a rise in more "modern/6th world" religious beliefs, sure.  But the old standards are going to stand firm and where better to present this than in a city like Jacksonville.


QUOTE (NightmareX)
IMO Shadowrun (purposely?) underplayed the effects the Awakening would have in relation to fundamentalist Christianity.  More moderate versions of the religion I could see adapting to the Sixth World, but among fundamentalists initially it would likely be seen as a the work of the devil and a sign of the immanent End Times.  I could easily see lots of "troll" (as in the late Troll from Alamos 2000) situations and more than a few deaths from attempted exorcisms.  I could also see the less fervent/more skeptical members of fundamentalist faiths quietly deserting to more moderate Christianities.  IMO, by 2057 (aka Awakenings) SR has it right - fundamentalist Christianity would be a largely ignored fringe faith, especially when the End Times didn't follow the script or in fact show up at all.


QUOTE (TheMadDutchman)

Also, I don't believe that the awakening would marginalize Christianity as a faith or any religion as a faith.  I think that  I know a lot of SR tends to give that impression but I just don't see it.  Believing that the awakening would cause over a billion people to lose faith is rather insulting to the billions of people on this planet that practice Christianity, Judaism, or the Islamic faith. 

The notion that we (yes, I'm one of them) would just stop believing because someone became an elf or an ork or because people began to practice magic is ridiculous.  Especially w/ the stance that the writers indicate that the Pope and most major moderate religious leaders took to integrate metahumanity and practitioners of magic into their ranks.

Regardless of whether there is a God or not people use faith, whatever faith they practice, as a mechanism for self-reconciliation.  It's a way to help us deal w/ the problems that everyday life throws at us and a way of looking at things that makes sense to us.  These things would not be wavered by goblinization or the awakening of the 6th world.  Even if Dunkelzahn had gone on the trid and said "There is no Christian God"  Christians wouldn't have stopped believing.  Though he probably wouldn't have gotten the Christian vote when he ran for president.

BTW I don't mean for this to spawn a huge religious debate, I'm just laying down my opinion and making as educated a guess as possible on how things would play out in an awakened world.


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NightmareX
post Aug 15 2007, 08:09 AM
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QUOTE (TheMadDutchman)
Also, I don't believe that the awakening would marginalize Christianity as a faith or any religion as a faith.

Not all of Christianity, no. Likely just the more fundamentalist/literalist versions of the faith, as I stated. More moderate/liberal/metaphorical versions of the faith would eventually adapt, as is shown in SR. I do think it would have a somewhat reductive effect on the faith (mainly clearing out a significant amount of "pew fillers"). Due to said reductive effect and geopolitical events (not to mention VITAS - death has a way of thinning the ranks of any religion), I would hazard a guess that in the Christianity may well have lost it's majority status in the Western world (though not to the extent that the entire faith is marginalized).

Note that I do not speculate as to the effects of the Awakening on Judaism or Islam as I know little of those faiths (apart from the OT documents in the bible).

QUOTE
Believing that the awakening would cause over a billion people to lose faith is rather insulting to the billions of people on this planet that practice Christianity, Judaism, or the Islamic faith.

Insult is, at times, a matter of perception. But I won't go any further into this, as religious debate isn't my point here and my recent track record regarding insult has been less than exemplary.

QUOTE
Especially w/ the stance that the writers indicate that the Pope and most major moderate religious leaders took to integrate metahumanity and practitioners of magic into their ranks.

While I think in time moderate Christian denoms would adapt to the Sixth World, I agree that the notion of them playing "follow the leader" to the Papacy's tune to be rather...ill informed or perhaps dismissive of a great many differences and issues that would prevent such a scenario.

QUOTE
Even if Dunkelzahn had gone on the trid and said "There is no Christian God"  Christians wouldn't have stopped believing.  Though he probably wouldn't have gotten the Christian vote when he ran for president.

Oh, most definitely agreed. Personally, I wonder if he would have gotten that much of the Christian vote to begin with, even with the more Awakened tolerant attitudes of SR, for obvious reasons.

QUOTE
BTW I don't mean for this to spawn a huge religious debate, I'm just laying down my opinion and making as educated a guess as possible on how things would play out in an awakened world.

Same here, I'm on vacation from religious debate. But yes, this is my educated guess as well, having once been a fundamentalist Christian for some time.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 15 2007, 08:16 AM
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QUOTE (NightmareX)
Rather, I am curious as to what everyone's take on the religious demographics of the Sixth World look like (in relation to the geopolitical situation as well), and the reasoning behind such opinions. I am also curious as to opinions of whether the Awakening would cause major doctrinal changes in various religions or not.

..wasn't that touched both in MitS and SM?
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fistandantilus4....
post Aug 15 2007, 08:24 AM
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QUOTE (Nightmare X)
I do ask that the mods be particularly draconian to prevent this thread from becoming a war zone or insult fest


There have been a number of religion based threads that have gone just fine in the past, so I'm not too worried.
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NightmareX
post Aug 15 2007, 09:33 AM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
..wasn't that touched both in MitS and SM?

In a "this is what's out there and how they generally deal with Awakened stuff" sense, yes. Real doctrinal changes were glossed over or not mentioned - for instance, in Christianity (and Judaism) the acceptance of magic as "ok" means in essence that a significant portion of the OT and NT has be reinterpeted or ignored, which has real ramifications as the bible is viewed as the literal or inspired Word of God. See what I mean?

I'm interested in digging a tad deeper and getting a bit more specific. For example, Christianity is the single largest religion today IRL (roughly 1/3 the planet's population in some form or another) - does that hold true in the Sixth World or has that ratio dropped? (As stated, I would guess it dropped) What about the religious demographic of the UCAS (for example) - who are the biggest players religiously speaking, and in what proportions? Or Seattle? What are the various megacorps opinions on religion (presuming they care)?

And also, how does the existence of advanced technology (cyberware, cloning, VR - virtual churches anyone?) and AIs (and technos to a lesser extent) effect various religions?

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
There have been a number of religion based threads that have gone just fine in the past, so I'm not too worried.

Well, I know I can get very passionate on the subject, so that was kinda dual purpose - partly reminding myself to be good ;)
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 15 2007, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (NightmareX)
means in essence that a significant portion of the OT and NT has be reinterpeted or ignored

That's SOP.
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Blade
post Aug 15 2007, 11:28 AM
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Even if the judeochristian faith dwindles away, it doesn't mean that the strong judeochristian roots of the society will disappear as well. These have shaped our society and won't go away that easily.

Morals change over time but today the occidental philosophy is still the same as it was several hundred years ago, influenced by greek and latin philosophs and carried on by christian theologists.
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Synner
post Aug 15 2007, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE (NightmareX @ Aug 15 2007, 09:33 AM)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 15 2007, 03:16 AM)
..wasn't that touched both in MitS and SM?

In a "this is what's out there and how they generally deal with Awakened stuff" sense, yes. Real doctrinal changes were glossed over or not mentioned - for instance, in Christianity (and Judaism) the acceptance of magic as "ok" means in essence that a significant portion of the OT and NT has be reinterpeted or ignored, which has real ramifications as the bible is viewed as the literal or inspired Word of God. See what I mean?


This is not an entirely correct evaluation, as to both the need for profound doctrinal changes and to the biblical interpretation - at least as concerns Christianity and Judaism. Both feature a long history (and continuing acknowledgment) of mystical and pseudo-hermetic/hellenistic lore and symbology in the case of Christianity dating back to the Gnostics and the first and second century splinter Christian churches (and in the case of Judaism, Qabbalistic studies have always been there).

Just for the record, recent writing in SR books has been thoroughly researched and grounded, and any hand-waving has been the result of trying to reconcile previously existing canon on religious doctrine with a deeper perspective. I know I've been responsible for a significant chunk of them.

I agree that Fundamentalist Evangelical denominations and hardcore Catholic conservatives are going to have some serious problems coming to terms with magic (as a non-divine gift) - which is one of the reasons I singled them out in SoE, Sota64 and Street Magic.

However Roman Catholicism in general, Orthodox Christianity, many Reform Protestant denominations (Anglicans, Lutherans, etc), and the increasing number of Neo-Evangelical and Post-Evangelical denominations (which show huge growth in South America and Africa will face far fewer problems.

In fact Catholicism just has to tap the significant Church law left by several imporant and "untouchable" figures like Saint Thomas Aquinas and the neo-platonic mysticism of the early Christian philosophers and mathematicians. Reform Protestantism needs little tweaking to tap the huge resource of Renaissance Christian Qabbalism and Hermeticism (which flourished in Hungary, Austria, Southern Germany, the Hanseatic league and in what is today the Czech Republic). All the major branches of Orthodox Christianity have a long history of near-shamanic and ecstatic trappings and rituals - that have not-so-innocent parallels with Sufi practices.

Important note - one thing I see ignored all too often when people start bandying about numbers is the enormous difference between practicing believers and people who identify themselves with a particular faith (ie. those that show up in census). Christians are roughly "1/3 the planet's population" but the vast majority is non-practicing and feels no special attachment to the doctrines and edicts of their "church of choice". This important because subscribing to a faith does not necessarily give that religion any significant social or political weight in the democratic process (though it can, as attested, ironically, by the unlike trio of the US, Pakistan, and Iran).

Keep in mind that this is what really matters - not overall figures but committed believers and practicing faithful. While in Islam the figures are skewed to something like 75% practicing (church-going, doctrine-practicing) believers to 25% non-practicing Muslims, in Christianity figures are skewed the opposite way with only about 20% worldwide actually qualifying as practicing members of congregations (going to church more than twice a year, following doctrine in everyday life, etc). Admittedly numbers might be closer to 80% among Fundamentalist christians, most notably in heartland America, but those are still a very small minority worldwide (to give you some perspective according to a 2004 Georgetown study for several interfaith groups including the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue - the (growing) number of conservative Protestant Evangelicals in America (around 100 million which is relatively close to the US Census Bureau's 2007 Statistical Analysis figures) is dwarfed by UNESCO's figures for Neo-Evangelical numbers in South American - with 120 million in Brazil alone).
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NightmareX
post Aug 15 2007, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
That's SOP.

True ;) But that gets a tad too close to religious debate to pursue further methinks. Now a reason for such happening in the Sixth World, on the other hand....

QUOTE (Blade)
Even if the judeochristian faith dwindles away, it doesn't mean that the strong judeochristian roots of the society will disappear as well. These have shaped our society and won't go away that easily.

Morals change over time but today the occidental philosophy is still the same as it was several hundred years ago, influenced by greek and latin philosophs and carried on by christian theologists.

Very true, but if you look at the world and society described in SR4 I find it hard to see what, if any, remaining shreds of JudeoChristian morality remains. Then again I don't find that problematic given the traumas Western society went through to get to 2070. Said morals certainly didn't go easily (and likely not completely).

QUOTE (Synner)
This is not an entirely correct evaluation, as to both the need for profound doctrinal changes and to the biblical interpretation - at least as concerns Christianity and Judaism. Both feature a long history (and continuing acknowledgment) of mystical and pseudo-hermetic/hellenistic lore and symbology in the case of Christianity dating back to the Gnostics and the first and second century splinter Christian churches (and in the case of Judaism, Qabbalistic studies have always been there).

Very true, but we must remember the fate of the Gnostic heresies. As a (fundamentalist) Christian friend and player of mine said when I had her read over the Christian Theurgy tradition from Street Magic "That isn't Christian". While her perspective is admittedly, well, flawed and lacking historical context to put it kindly, I suspect that many Christians of various denoms these days would have a similar response. Especially given the rather clear prohibitions and denunciations of things magical throughout the bible.

Of course, if they went the "double think" route that Judaism went with Qabbalism - ie "our magic is good but all other magic is bad" - I would find that totally believable.

QUOTE
Just for the record, recent writing in SR books has been thoroughly researched and grounded, and any hand-waving has been the result of trying to reconcile previously existing canon on religious doctrine with a deeper perspective. I know I've been responsible for a significant chunk of them.

My apologies Synner, I wasn't clear enough. It was the original (1st edition) writers I was referring to when I made the "ill informed or perhaps dismissive" comment. I think you know I feel you guys are largely doing a good job.

(btw, a note to the general public - While it may have the appearance of it, this is in fact not ass kissing. Ass kissing presupposes a desired reward and I have no such intentions in regard to Synner or anyone else that works on SR. While I once had ambitions of freelancing, the realizations that my writing is crap and that I am chronically unable to get anything done made it apparent that such ambitions were pointless. Thus, I am simply a consumer.)

QUOTE
the increasing number of Neo-Evangelical and Post-Evangelical denominations (which show huge growth in South America and Africa will face far fewer problems.

Hmm, I don't know much about those denoms, and thus hadn't thought about them. Thank you, something new to research there :)

QUOTE
In fact Catholicism just has to tap the significant Church law left by several imporant and "untouchable" figures like Saint Thomas Aquinas and the neo-platonic mysticism of the early Christian philosophers and mathematicians. Reform Protestantism needs little tweaking to tap the huge resource of Renaissance Christian Qabbalism and Hermeticism (which flourished in Hungary, Austria, Southern Germany, the Hanseatic league and in what is today the Czech Republic). All the major branches of Orthodox Christianity have a long history of near-shamanic and ecstatic trappings and rituals - that have not-so-innocent parallels with Sufi practices.

But further Synner, thank you for this - very concise and informative. I think I may show it to the friend I mentioned above ;)

QUOTE
Important note - one thing I see ignored all too often when people start bandying about numbers is the enormous difference between practicing believers and people who identify themselves with a particular faith (ie. those that show up in census). Christians are roughly "1/3 the planet's population" but the vast majority is non-practicing and feels no special attachment to the doctrines and edicts of their "church of choice". This important because subscribing to a faith does not necessarily give that religion any significant social or political weight in the democratic process (though it can, as attested, ironically, by the unlike trio of the US, Pakistan, and Iran).

It's these non-practicing/non-committed individuals whom I meant when I referred to "pew fillers" (ie Christian in the same sense that Homer Simpson is). As you said, they are the majority in Christianity.
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Ed_209a
post Aug 15 2007, 01:18 PM
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I think "new-age" religions will have a massive upswing in the 6th world. The return of magic will have thousands of people saying "We were right all along! So there, Organized Religion!"

SR canon has wisely not weighed in on whether Totems are gods or more like force 100 great form spirits. They just are. Nevertheless, I think there will be lots of people worshiping totems as gods.

As for the rest, I think most people will either adapt their faith structure to the return of magic or just keep on being apathetic about their faith. Sure, some people will become radicalized by the emergence of magic, but that will always happen, no matter what the event.

For example, the D&D and Harry Potter radicals. :)
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nezumi
post Aug 15 2007, 02:03 PM
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Among Christians, I think we'll have a few different responses. Churches like the Episcopal Church, which already has gay bishops and Muslim priests, should have no problem accepting magicians into the fold. Ultra-conservative churches are going to have serious problems, and there may be a few disappearances attributed to rapture. I imagine we'll see something similar to what happened with the 7th day Adventists. Someone decides the end is nigh, they all climb onto the top of a barn and wait a few days, they try again in another year, then reinvent the church embracing some new view on the end times which would factor in magic and trolls. The people who still hold true to the beliefs of the original church would go off 'into the desert' to make fundamentalist fundamentalist churches, likely enclaves, where they can practice in quiet.

Among the more mainstream churches, we'll have a few big ones, like the Roman Catholic Church, which are going to sit down and basically say 'we can stick to current canon, or we can figure out a new interpretation so the church stays alive'. Most likely it would include something along the lines of 'this new version of magic is not the same as the magic of old, it is a new dimension to current scientific laws and practices. Denying so-called 'magic' is like denying pharmaceuticals on the grounds that its potion making or light bulbs because the power that drives them is beyond our immediate view. However, this 'magic' is very powerful and has the potential to cause serious harm to any believer not properly blessed and taught in the ways of the Lord, so don't practice them without a dispensation.' Once the RCC church takes on that position, the other big Christian churches will largely follow suit (admittedly, the RCC probably won't be the first church to take that position, but it'll be one of the bigger ones).

Just like with the current RCC, there are some people who will disagree with the decision, just like there are ones who disagree with Vatican II, however in general they'll go along and just gripe about how it was when they were young, which they'll send via e-mail correspondence to bored young nephews who really don't care.
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FrankTrollman
post Aug 15 2007, 02:34 PM
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Christianity has been dwindling for quite some time. The percentage of people in the United States who identified themselves as Christian dropped from 86% in 1990 to only 77% in 2001. THis in a country where 53% of the population says that religion is "very important in their life" - a stark contrast with other developed nations (in Germany, that number is only 13%).

At the present rate of change, a majority of Americans will identify themselves as non-religious or non-Christian in 3035. Less than 15 years later, Islam would be the dominant world religion.

---

But Religion is a cultural effect more than a rational one. Pascal's Wager only makes sense if you only consider the possibilities of accepting or rejecting your culturally appropriate religion - as soon as you enter third possibilty land where you might accept the religions of other cultures the entire premise collapses. In Shadowrun's world, a significant number of people in North America decided to be "Native Americans" rather than "European Settlers". That's a choice which makes as much sense as any other (since most of those people have never been to Europe anyway).

So when people in 2050 decide to get religion they are as likely to see Bufalo Woman as they are the Virgin Mary. Added to the fact that Shadowrun posits that current trends of alienation of religious groups from mainstream society continue for the next coupleof decades and you have Christianity as a seriously minor force in civil life.

--

I'm not saying that any particular person will lose their faith. I'm saying that right now there are more people leaving churches than are joining them. Church attendance among Americans in the 25 to 29 range is less than one in four. By the time they get old enough to be dmographically looking for a church, Howling Coyote will already be making his cultural paradigm shift.

There is no reason to believe that in our world starting from 2007 that Christianity will be a defining political force in America by 2070. In Shadowrun's world there are several specific cultural events which marginalize it even more.

Sure, some people will continue to worship Jesus. People worship Zoroaster. I'm not going to stop them.

-Frank
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nezumi
post Aug 15 2007, 03:19 PM
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I think it's important to also consider also style choices when addressing this question. Shadowrun is ultimately a modern dystopic setting talking about people caught up in the trappings of modern luxuries who abuse the downtrodden in order to keep them, about a line between the haves and have-nots, about the speed of change and the cheapness of life. Simply said, the story of Christianity (and of most other religions) does not fit into that setting. The idea of all men being inherently valuable to God and saved by faith, destined for a life of eternal paradise is contrary to the reality we're given as Shadowrun. As such, for stylistic concerns alone, our current understanding of Christianity (and really, most other religions) should not be pressed home. If anything, there should be a sense of buying salvation, about a Calvanistic viewpoint that the rich have God's favor while the poor are destined for hell, and of guilt for actions that cannot be avoided, that can solely be alleviated by being part of a particular clique. Corporate Christianity would be a good theme, a church owned completely by a given corporation, like televangelists, who preach good work and buying from 'good' companies are the way to heaven.
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Eleazar
post Aug 15 2007, 05:15 PM
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It is hard to say what exactly would happen. Though Shadowrun takes place on the same earth as ours physically, it is very different than our world in every other way. Just the notion that magic could surge and become real changes things. The fact that there has been 6 stages of magic would change things. I think different faiths altogether would have formed since magic from the previous 5 stages would have a large effect on the way man views the spirit and his philosophy of the world. In my opinion, having our current world religions seems incongruent to the Shadowrun setting.

Lets forget this previous paragraph and ask what if everything was rationally sound. The judeochristian faiths would be at a crisis of faith. There is not anything in their holy books about the 6th awakening or any awakening for that matter. I would think those with faith would find it rather difficult to come to terms with this. Magic would be seen as inherently evil by all judeochristian religions because you are working in your own power and not Gods to make use of these mystical powers. Not only that, but these powers can also be used for evil, which is not something a Biblical miracle, wonder, or gift would allow. All judeochristian religions believe, with possibly the exception of Islam, that such things are workings of the Holy Spirit; He can only be good. Some might attribute this evil to satan's workings, however this is intellectually dishonest with what is known about how magic works. From a Christian perspective, Christians are not that simple-minded, St. Augustine is a great example of this. So are more contemporary thinkers like C.S. Louis and Francis Schaffer. I think some of the more liberal(NO, don't think politics) judeochristian religions would be more accepting of magic. Most however, would probably see it as sinful.

I don't think this derides the judeochristian religions in anyway. To put it simply, in the Shadowrun world there is no God. In our world, as any member of these religions would say, there is a God. Shadowrun does not allow for a god of anykind to exist to the capacity of the judeochristian relgions, because he would have to reside on a metaplane somewhere. As a member of these religions would say, a god in Shadowrun could never fully have the same glory and splendor of the one true God. Simply put, if you wanted the judeochristian god, God, to exist in Shadowrun, I think it would require direct changes to God's nature, how he interacts with his people, and a reworking of the Bible, Koran, or Tanakh.
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Eleazar
post Aug 15 2007, 05:27 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
I'm not saying that any particular person will lose their faith. I'm saying that right now there are more people leaving churches than are joining them. Church attendance among Americans in the 25 to 29 range is less than one in four. By the time they get old enough to be demographically looking for a church, Howling Coyote will already be making his cultural paradigm shift.

This is of course assuming that things continue to go this direction. The future is unpredictable. It is very possible church attendance could go up. Without knowing what is attributing the leaving of churches it becomes rather difficult to predict what the future holds. Might I remind you that church attendance has fluctuated greatly and is something that rises and falls as time passes. Remember the enlightenment period and Voltaire boasting that in 100 years time of his death the Bible would disappear. It is way past 1878 and we still have plenty of Bibles, even in France. It is still the best-selling book in America.
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nezumi
post Aug 15 2007, 05:45 PM
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I have to disagree with you, Eleazor. There is no set time for how long the end times are supposed to take. Revelations could likely be spread out over multiple generations. I believe (but would have to double check) that there's a branch of Judaism that specifically said 2012 marks the end of the world. I can see many churches and individuals saying 2012 marks the end times, and any day now Jesus will come. But gradually people will accept that Revelations (which is highly metaphorical) refers to a far, far longer period of time than originally understood.
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Ted Stewart
post Aug 15 2007, 07:10 PM
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The shamanic and hermetic traditions are not the only forms of magic in SR. 4th Ed mentions Christian theurges obliquely, and I don't see any reason there couldn't be mages basing their traditions upon Islamic beliefs or Jewish kabbalah. Most organized religions contain examples of divine intervention, and magic by the faithful could be seen in a similar light.

Hmm. Now I want to play a Kabbalist. It would just be fun.
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Eleazar
post Aug 15 2007, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)
I have to disagree with you, Eleazor. There is no set time for how long the end times are supposed to take. Revelations could likely be spread out over multiple generations. I believe (but would have to double check) that there's a branch of Judaism that specifically said 2012 marks the end of the world. I can see many churches and individuals saying 2012 marks the end times, and any day now Jesus will come. But gradually people will accept that Revelations (which is highly metaphorical) refers to a far, far longer period of time than originally understood.

I doubt you disagree with me because I said nothing to that effect. I also disagree with that notion you seem to presuppose I made. The only thing I said is that the Bible does not cover anything as far as the cycles of magic. I do not recall placing any timeline for revelations nor inferring anything about when the end of time was. If I did, I assure you that was not my intention.
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hyzmarca
post Aug 15 2007, 08:14 PM
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Native American religions will have the greatest growth rate in the Sixth World due to the formation on the NAN and the cultural shifts created by this event. Further, Aztlan's adoption of the Aztec religion as its official state faith has brought it into the mainstream. Neo-Paganism and Wicca would have proven to have effective magic techniques with the Awakening, and it seems that Classical Pagan religions have received a strong popularity boost amongst Europeans wanting to get back to their roots.

Every religion has its magical traditions, a fact that most people don't notice. Even the Bible has examples of non-divine magical powers, some of which were used by righteous people. When Ham accidentally saw Noah peepee (due to Noah being a drunken flasher), for example, Noah placed a magical curse on Ham's son Caanan.
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Eleazar
post Aug 15 2007, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 15 2007, 03:14 PM)
Every religion has its magical traditions, a fact that most people don't notice. Even the Bible has examples of non-divine magical powers, some of which were used by righteous people.  When Ham accidentally saw Noah peepee (due to Noah being a drunken flasher), for example, Noah placed a magical curse on Ham's son Caanan.

This is wholly false, your example is an incorrect evaluation of the Hebrew words used. The Hebrew word used for "expose" in this passage is the very same used later in Leviticus for having sexual relations with ones mother. In fact, the Talmud goes as far as to say Ham either castrated or in agreement with the word usage in Leviticus, sodomized him. We know that some sort of sexual action was taken due to the word used, the specific is just unknown. This curse, was in no way some magical curse, the text itself nor the Hebrew word used even infer or state this. I don't know where you got that from. The reason why Ham's son was cursed and it was actually fulfilled was because Canaan was ostracized due to the curse Noah placed on him. Punishing ones offspring, for an especially depraved act, was a common punishment due to the immense shame it put onto the individual because your progeny was highly valued. Just think of Abraham and his legacy. This curse is also congruent to God's promise to Abraham that his descendants on Jacob's side were to inherit the promised land and not the descendants of Ham.

You can continue on believing what you may, but realize that thousands of years of precedence and biblical scholars do not support your statement. That, and the text is contrary to your views as well.

The only close to magical tradition stemming from Jewish belief, is Kabbalah. This is a form of Jewish gnosticism, and I would call it more mystical than magical. The only parts of the Bible that include non-divine magical powers are places like Exodus which deal with witchcraft. Pharaoh's magicians could produce some of the same wonders God did through Moses. Of course, God always did it considerably better, and there came a time where they just couldn't reproduce them at all due to their very limited power. Non-divine magic is also not the best way to say it, because it implies that there might be divine magic. As a follower might say, the judeochristian God does not need to resort to such cheap tricks. Magic in the Bible is depicted as inherently evil and is why you have seen such things as the Salem witch trials in Christianity's past. If there were such a thing as divine magic that those in God could use, it would call into question the very power of God. Because then, God's power could be used as an art, with discretion subject to only very whims of the person granted this divine magic. God works by miracles, signs, wonders, and gifts, never by magic. This is why magic to judeochristians is so counter to what they believe. Because if it isn't by God's power, then it is either by the flesh or by satan.

Just noticed you said "which were used by righteous people". A righteous person would never use magic, whether divine or non-divine. For two reasons, there is no such thing as divine magic, and non-divine magic is satan's domain. Magic is synonymous to witchcraft in the judeochristian religions. I realize that some might say, "In the Bible God does wonders that one would consider magic by definition.". God works by is own power which is supernatural by nature. Supernatural power does not always mean magical. God's supernatural power does not use trickery, the sleight of hand, illusion, or any sort of manipulation of energy(mana) to work. He just wills it and it happens. As I stated previously, these are miracles, signs, wonders, and gifts. And no, these are not just some repackaged forms of magic under a different name. No one in the judeochristian religion believes this way. Except maybe for people that reject wholly parts of the Bible.

Sorry to make this so long, I just wanted to get past all of the misconceptions that this could bring up about what judeochristians believe. They may not believe exactly as I have said, but they certainly agree on the singular point, magic is inherently evil.
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Spike
post Aug 15 2007, 10:08 PM
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And Satan appears how many times in the Bible? Particularly the OT?

Leviticus has some pretty specific injunctions. Nothing about magic by itself that I recall, against diviners, poisoners and those who truck with spirits.

In theory then, magic is perfectly acceptable, as long as you avoid divination and conjuration, and you don't use poison based combat magic.

Its just not from God necessarily (though: Moses was punished for doing magic without God's approval, if you want to read it a certain way. God gave Moses magic, and as long as Moses used it for good, all was well, when he did it for personal gain (rather than trusting in God) he was punished... Reading it that way would suggest that God grants Magic, it is then up to man (free will and all that) to use it in a godly fashion).


If the power were from God directly, then how could Moses have misused it?


Though I find the assertion that God would be 'forced' to reside somewhere in the metaplanes a laughable one. One would assume that any belief structure that included a singular, all powerful, creator deity would put said deity in charge of creation of the astral as well as the physical, and thus outside of both.

Technically a God inside the Astral would be more akin to a Gnostic Demiurge... which makes for an interesting discussion on the nature of the Astral...
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hyzmarca
post Aug 15 2007, 11:03 PM
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The Jewish concept of Satan and the Christian concept of Satan are completely different. While Christian theology presents Satan as an evil antagonistic figure, Jewish theology presents him as being more like a District Attorney.

While Christian theology equates the serpent in the Garden of Eden to be Satan, Jewish theologies treat it as nothing more or less than a normal snake. One can presume that there is nothing odd about the ability of Adam and Eve to communicate with non-human animals.

Hell and the devil are pretty much Christian concepts.

The interpretation of the Curse of Ham having magical aspects is not my own. It was, in fact, once a very common interpretation amongst Western churches, along with the belief that the magical component of the curse made Canaan's skin black *cough cough*. Yeah, it was basically a flimsy justification for slavery. But, so is the original text. The entire point of the curse was to justify the enslavement of the Canaanites.
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Jaid
post Aug 16 2007, 01:12 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The entire point of the curse was to justify the enslavement of the Canaanites.

right... the israelites (or moses, or whoever you wish to attribute that passage of scripture) made up a curse on the canaanites to justify everyone else enslaving them... makes perfect sense.

also, while their concept of hell may be different, it is my understanding that they do, in fact, have some concept of hell. though my understanding is admittedly incomplete on that matter...
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Penta
post Aug 16 2007, 01:17 AM
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One thing people are missing:

Speaking strictly from the Catholic PoV, the Church doesn't think the Bible is inerrant (look at the Johannine Comma for a great example). Nor is one supposed to take it all literally.

No, it is divinely inspired. As in, basically, human hands putting down God's words, though not how He might have said it (God would have used better grammar in some cases, for one thing!). And we know that the Bible is riddled with transcription errors, translation weirdness, etc.

Believe it or not...For Roman Catholics (and the Eastern Churches, both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox), at least...Magic would not change much. (Protestants who believe in sola scriptura are perhaps stuck, if they take the Bible as inerrant) Because the teachings of the Church are based on Scripture and Tradition. This matters, because:

1) What "magic" meant in two thousand years of tradition, and what it means when there are actually people chucking fireballs, may not be the same thing, even to theologians. Much of what was called magic could also be called, simply put, confidence schemes, medical quakery, or the like.

2) Look at some of the acts attributed to the Saints and to others in Christian tradition. Some of that sounds a lot like magic in Shadowrun terms.

3) Tradition has *always* adapted to take into account newly-gained knowledge. It was a Belgian Jesuit priest, Georges Lemaitre, who was one of the first people to propose the Big Bang theory, for example. And in regards to evolution...For once, Wikipedia explains it well enough. Evolution is Not Evil. Evolution is Good. Evolution is much, much more than a mere hypothesis.
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hyzmarca
post Aug 16 2007, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 15 2007, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 15 2007, 06:03 PM)
The entire point of the curse was to justify the enslavement of the Canaanites.

right... the israelites (or moses, or whoever you wish to attribute that passage of scripture) made up a curse on the canaanites to justify everyone else enslaving them... makes perfect sense.

No, the Isrealites made up a curse on the Canaanites to justify the Israelites enslaving the Canaanites. And they did just that.

Of course, the Canaanites weren't black. The whole Canaanites being black idea comes much later when the enslavement of Sub-Saharan Africans become popular.
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