Stick n' Shock: The Poll, Like the other thread, but with buttons |
Stick n' Shock: The Poll, Like the other thread, but with buttons |
Aug 17 2007, 12:27 AM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
Thought I'd see if I could get some numbers on this.
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Aug 17 2007, 12:40 AM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 92 Joined: 15-July 07 Member No.: 12,262 |
I'm in the category of "never use S&S because I like to shot people dead" :P
I think a lot of this is going to be perception. I'm of the opinion that taking down someone non-lethal should be MUCH more difficult than the lethal method. Bringing back someone alive rather than dead has always been considered the more difficult alternative. Does S&S make non-lethal take downs easier than lethal? If yes, then I would say its over powered. Being non-lethal SHOULD be more difficult as opposed to lethal. Non lethal has FAR more rewards to it than being lethal. Non-lethal take downs mean you can get information from someone. Even guards have useful information you can get from them (and are usually pretty easy to get to talk). The vengeful J might prefer the target to be brought back alive, making the run more rewarding while more difficult. S&S also leaves almost no evidence. No nasty blood that needs cleaned, just an unconscious body that can easily be taken care of. Asking is S&S over powered compared to ExEx is a poor question. Does ExEx let you interrogate someone after the fact? Does ExEx provide the advantages of a non-lethal take down? No, people shot in the face with ExEx don't get up. They can't give you vital information, they are an icky mess that is obvious that someone was here. |
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Aug 17 2007, 12:46 AM
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#3
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, it seems a bit over the top, but hasn't been a problem for me/us.
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Aug 17 2007, 04:58 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
If that's what's truly bothering you then you have far more issues to beef with than poor ol' stick 'n' shock. Flechette ammo? That's probably going to dealin' stun. Stunbolt? Duh. Supersquirt with pepper punch? Stun, stun and more stun. Subdual combat? You bet your sweet ass that's stun damage. Narcoject laced thrown weapons or injection arrows? Teensy bit of physical and big wad o' good old fashioned stun. Airburst Flash-Bangs are pretty spiffy as well. And none of these options are all that terribly much worse than the lethal alternatives. Bottomline is, as strongly as you may feel about the subject, many of us (apparently the devs included) are perfectly fine with the idea that it's easier to hurt someone than it is to reduce them to a red smear. Not to mention, sometimes leaving survivors is every bit as dangerous as just killing everyone and leaving it at that. At least the dead guy can't come after you himself. Well, most of the time, anyway. |
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Aug 17 2007, 05:40 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
It was said by someone before, that Lone Star needed a 'non-lethal' round and Stick-n-shock was the answer.
Lone Star now sends their employees out with nonconductive-modded armor, the highest rating is only 1200 :nuyen: after all. Most corps would also throw a level or two on their armor as well. So if the most broken round in the game is easily countered by spending a little money.. what's the worry? Plus it's a great anti-drone round, which should be something every runner cares about. It's nice to get that Lone Star (or other corp) drone off your tail by volting it.. and hey, free drone! It's mainly for use against street gangs, innocent bystanders, and poor runners. As far as stun rounds go it's not as good as gel rounds (no armor mod aids versus it, plus bonus knockdown) but does incapacitate which can suck. Plus (as everyone knows) a Lone Star officer can 'accidentally' fire a half-dozen rounds at a target who overflows to physical and dies. Oops. |
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Aug 17 2007, 06:06 AM
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#6
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Wait, when did it become a fundamental law of the universe for it to be easier to kill someone than knock them out? I had no idea that clubbing someone to death was easier than just knocking them out, or that it often takes more than one shot to kill someone as opposed to a single taser-type attack to drop 'em in the real world.
And it's not like today there's numerous companies out there researching very effective ways to create non-lethal alternatives to firearms. Including things like stick-n-shock. You also know how hard it's going to be to create stuff like that in an age where battery technology is apparently so advanced that a microdrone can run for hours and hours on end, or cyberware implants don't even need any. |
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Aug 17 2007, 06:10 AM
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#7
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Since gently batting someone over the head results usually in a corpse.FActor in that RL tasers don't knock you out and there you go. |
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Aug 17 2007, 06:21 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Shadowrun's Tasers are broken, then. Down with Tasers!
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Aug 17 2007, 06:27 AM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, you could change the rules to focus on the incapacitation effect and make them stop penetrating armor.
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Aug 17 2007, 06:58 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
They're the best ammo type in the game, really. They chop through armor, go against Impact (which is typically lower than Ballistic armor), and if they HIT (not damage, HIT) you have to roll that test against the incapacitation effect, which is a pretty tough test and could leave you defenseless for several rounds. It also shorts drones and electronics, and really now... it's just too awesome. It makes light pistols uber and turns even the wussiest character into a killing machine.
I had an adept who was using a light pistol with stick-and-shock, and I actually talked to the GM about letting me switch them out for gel, since I felt like the levels of ass I was kicking was totally not justified. I was taking out armed guards and security officers pretty easily, and thought that it wasn't right. If stick-and-shock were a little more toned down, I wouldn't feel so bad about using them, but as it is they're just too awesome. If you're in a heavy firefight, killing somebody and knocking them out/incapacitating them are more or less the same thing. So why not go with the non-lethal round that stuns them even if it doesn't knock them out? |
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Aug 17 2007, 07:04 AM
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#11
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, and it doesn't matter if you are wearing fullbody armor with max nonconductive upgrade, take no damage and make the incapacitation test - if they hit you, you'll suffer a -2 penalty. |
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Aug 17 2007, 07:20 AM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Sounds like overpowered then.
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Aug 17 2007, 07:24 AM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Really great to see the vast majority who've taken part of the poll agree that it's not a problem at all.
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Aug 17 2007, 07:35 AM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..because they aren't really using it. Mostly because they think it's over the top. Go figure. :P |
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Aug 17 2007, 07:39 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
I mostly GM and haven't seen my players use/abuse it. Ex-ex is funnier, and gel remains the usual stun round (even if I tend to consider it only less-than-lethal rather than totally non-lethal).
It might be a bit broken... but it's just a combat thing. It's not as if it could hijack entire adventures and destroy the whole consistency of the universe. |
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Aug 17 2007, 12:35 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I voted in the not a problem / don't use it much since my typical MO is either stunbolt the ever living crap out of the target or put a bullet or 20 into them.
What I do works well enough for my tastes. Why mess with it? |
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Aug 17 2007, 12:56 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
S&S makes sense if follow the Big D's will concerning non lethal tech, something like S&S was bound to show up. My players have been using the old Plasma Shock ammo and weapons from an old Kage issue for many years, S&S is actually a comprimise of plasma shocks damage codes. Set damage actually lowers damage from were it used to be in assault rifle version.
For most part this ammo has historically been used in my games when absolutely positively had to knock some Mo'Fragger out and keep his meat alive. Also had mage in past who was completely against killing in cold blood and carried Plasma/stick and shock pistol. |
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Aug 17 2007, 08:39 PM
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#18
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...actually a number of my characters carry S&S, as well as a shock glove, stun baton, or the Shock Hand implant. Iv'e seen people get tased and yes, they are pretty helpless even a few moments after the charge is finished as their muscles are still clenched from the shock. Enough time to get them cuffed or zip tied. |
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Aug 17 2007, 08:48 PM
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#19
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's great. You do realize that in SR, they are unconcious for, say, hours?
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Aug 17 2007, 10:33 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958 |
Only if you flatline their stun boxs. The electrical effect takedown is listed in combat rounds. If you taser somebody long enough, they will pass out for a similar time frame. Assume the tasers in Shadowrun are significantly more powerful, and that the safety of the target is less of a priority than in our society, and a single hit with them could put somebody down. I also have to say that it's extremely difficult to kill somebody. A cripple is several orders of magnitude easier than a kill. Beating somebody to death is a LOT of work. Even knives and firearms are significantly more likely to put someone down than to kill them. Of course, killing someone who is already crippled isn't particularly difficult, but it's an additional step that most people won't take. Unfortunately, SR doesn't take that into account. The closest we have is the separation of stun vs physical damage. In that imperfect system, it makes sense that stun is more effective than physical, since physical here really means lethal. |
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