 Explosive damage scaling, The blacked face effect |
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 Aug 21 2007, 01:20 AM
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#26
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
Indeed. Either you rule that his body holds, and the blasts in a confined space applies. Or his body doesn't hold, and his upper chest is seperated from his waist. Determine your effects as appropriate. How am I calculating armor penalties incorrectly? SR4, 149 says if either rating exceeds body x 2 (4 in this case) apply a -1 penalty for every 2 points its exceeded. Balistic is 8 -4 = 4. /2 = 2. Impact is 6, -4 = 2, /2 = 1. -3 total. Ok, you're right, I missed the double body thing. -3 is still too much for him to move in. Do you let people swim without using (or defaulting) to swimming skill? Or jump without using (or defaulting) their jumping skill? If you want to use demolitions, you use the skill. You can default to it, and thats why. They do use the demolitions skill, whether you realize it or not. SR4, 123, "The Demolitions Skill governs the preparation, measuring, and setting of chemical explosives." I'd argue that "randomly setting off explosives" falls under the "setting of chemical explosives." |
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Aug 21 2007, 01:48 AM
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#27
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Yes. I also let them drive a car without using (or defaulting) Pilot Ground Craft. I also let them run without using (or defaulting) running. I also let them pick up lightweight objects without making a lifting test. Simple no-brainer tasks do not require skill checks. You only need to make a running test if you want to run fast. You only need to make a swimming test if you want to swim fast. You only need to make a driving test if you're in a chase, race, combat, or doing stunts. You only need to make a lifting test if you're trying to pick up something that is very heavy. You only need to make a firearms test if you actually want to shoot something. You only need to make a demolitions test if you are actually trying to blow something up. |
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Aug 21 2007, 04:15 PM
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#28
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I think it's like in cartoons, when Wile E Coyote runs off a cliff but he doesn't fall until he realizes he's out there. When you're an adult, you know what you're doing is suicidal, so it affects you. Kids don't realize it's dangerous, ergo they don't get hurt. Me and my buddy used to go sledding off his roof when it got covered in snow. It was great. :D |
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Aug 21 2007, 05:41 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Makes you wonder just how much belief defines reality, doesn't it?
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Aug 21 2007, 05:41 PM
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#30
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I follow the same thinking. If it's routine then there should be no test, unless a character has a Flaw/NQ (such as Computer Illiterate or Uneducated) that would come into play. |
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Aug 21 2007, 05:55 PM
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#31
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Hmmm, that could be problematic, so I'm going to try not to think about it and hope it goes away. ;) |
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Aug 21 2007, 08:14 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,069 Joined: 19-July 07 From: Oakland CA Member No.: 12,309 |
I think we missed something critical in the midst of all this rules/realism conversation. Namely Hyzmarca never got props for referencing an Illudium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator. so um ... props
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Aug 21 2007, 08:16 PM
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#33
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Good point. That was a very nice reference. I meant to comment on it initially, but got distracted somehow.
Hehe, I can hear the voice now. :-D |
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Aug 21 2007, 10:38 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
But he failed to mention the "Earth shattering kaboom". One must always mention the lack of it when talking about the Illuduim PU-36 Explosive Space Moduator.
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Aug 22 2007, 12:26 AM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
SR4, 54, "The gamemaster should not require a player to make a test when the action is something that the character should be expected to do without difficulty. For example, if a character is driving downtown to buy soymilk and NERPS, no test is necessary. If she’s suddenly found herself in a car chase, however—perhaps she ran a red light and a Lone Star officer is in pursuit—then it’s time to break out the dice."
I agree joe wageslave can drive to the store and back with his 0 skill. I disagree that joe wageslave can set explosives (on a vest or otherwise) with 0 skill without a skill check. At this point however, its the GM's call, and if you want to rule that anyone on the street can setup a vest to go off at the same time with multiple sticks of dynamite, every time, without fail, then go for it. I think it warrants a test. |
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Aug 22 2007, 02:57 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I'd argue that for anyone without some knowledge of explosives doing anything "clever" should require some sort of roll. Ex-amateur bomb makers are often nicknamed "lefty" or "hook" for a reason. |
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Aug 22 2007, 03:29 AM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I'd argue that anything to do with explosives what so ever probably needs a roll. Even the experts blow themselves up regularly. |
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Aug 22 2007, 03:58 AM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Demolitions should definitely be a non-defaultable Skill.
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Aug 22 2007, 04:41 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Well, sort of. My impression is that rather few infantrymen blow themselves up setting up claymores, but they drill into you how you are to be set it up and the instructions are printed on the bag. I felt fairly confident that I could set up and fire a claymore after basic, but I wouldn't have wanted to try anything involving assembling bulk explosives and a firing train, or trying to booby trap a claymore, or fiddle with grenade fuzes. And accidents still do happen to experts. A guy at work who went through SF training between 68-70 mentioned that an entire engineering class was killed during a demolition exercise that went horribly awry while he was going through the weapons course. |
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Aug 22 2007, 05:48 AM
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#40
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..agreed. One of my characters cringed one time when someone said "Got it on a Chip". The character I was playing was Leela who had Demolitions 6 (8 with plastic explosives). |
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Aug 22 2007, 06:07 AM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I take your point. That said, when you think about it, setting a claymore isn't any more of an 'explosive' skill than throwing a grenade is. Not sure what other SR4 skill you'd use, but hey ;) Also
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Paramet...95/steinweg.htm Some blue on blue definitely happens with the things. |
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Aug 22 2007, 08:11 AM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
When it comes to clear printed letters with step-by-step instructions I would say that any character can do it by default without a skill roll. BUT… I would demand a logic test with no success demand. As long as they don’t get a critical glitch they don’t blow themselves to bits or mistaking “front towards enemy� and placing it backwards. Demolition skill would increase the damage of the placed claymore as an expert is handling the demolitions and knows how to get maximum effect as per normal rules. |
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Aug 22 2007, 02:45 PM
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#43
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Jopp, why not just let them make a Logic + Demolitions skill for it, and then default to logic -1 if they don't have it, with a threshold of 0. The trained guy places it better and causes more damage to intended targets, and the untrained guy just needs to not glitch/crit glitch.
Successes gotten by the defaulter would still up dmg, because whether through simply thinking about a better way to place it, or just pure luck in doing so, he made it more effective, so why not give him the benefit of the dice should they fall that way. |
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Aug 22 2007, 03:23 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I'd guess most of those FF claymore casualties are due to soldiers forgetting how dangerous the back and sides of a claymore are, and having friendlies (or themselves) too close when they hit the button. Sure, the ball bearings go out the front, but it's still a pound or so of explosive. |
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Aug 22 2007, 05:36 PM
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#45
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
If a guy's using demolitions to tape dynamite to his chest and doesn't care if they go off, then yes, he can do that for free without a test. If he succeeds, he explodes. If he fails, he explodes. The roll is pretty much meaningless except to determine how far the pieces go. Or don't go, in this guy's case.
And it's pretty easy to get 3 sticks of dynamite to go off at once. Once the first one goes off, the other two are gonna follow suit in a few nanoseconds. |
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Aug 22 2007, 06:23 PM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
There is also the chance that he's a complete moron and fails to place the detonator caps correctly or places the fuse at the wrong place or manage to fiddle with the dynamite in such a way that it doesn't go off. Or just go off at the completely wrong time or several minutes later than intended. |
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Aug 22 2007, 06:27 PM
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#47
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
so the test is to determine if the bomb goes of as intended on his chest, or at some "other" time?
bank robber walks into bank, yells, i have a bomb strapped to my chest, give me all your money, or i'll blow the place.... everyone complies.. he starts walking out the door and BOOM, bloody money! |
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Aug 22 2007, 06:38 PM
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#48
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Jopp, those are valid concerns for an ordinary game. The man in question is simply an automaton in a thought experiment designed to illustrate oddities in SR4's explosives. You don't need to roll dice for that.
I can't believe I'm even writing this! |
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Aug 22 2007, 06:45 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
If you are assembling bombs, there are lots of things that can go wrong. Wear a nylon shirt or pants as you assemble the bomb electronics and the last thing to go through you mind will be the roof structural members. And low order detonations are not that uncommon. Particularly in bombs assembled by clueless idiots. |
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Aug 22 2007, 06:47 PM
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#50
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Trust me, I know.
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