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 Casting without LOS |
 Aug 22 2007, 08:18 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046  |
Does 'Line of Sight' (LOS) range for spells include 'Touch'? In other words, if I have a blindfolded character, can he cast his Manabolt spell at a target he touches?
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Aug 22 2007, 08:20 PM
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#2
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
GM call. I've always played it that way, though. Touch trumps sight for forming links, IMO.
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Aug 22 2007, 08:20 PM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
LOS and Touch are two different ranges. You don't need the former for the latter and vice-versa.
Sorry, I misread. If a spell has a LOS requirement, you have to see them even if you're touching them. Only Touch spells (or those you cast using Ritual Spellcasting) get around the LOS requirement of LOS spells. So no, you couldn't cast Manabolt by touching someone only, but you could cast Death Touch. They're two completely different types of "ranges," and one doesn't trump the other. |
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Aug 22 2007, 08:22 PM
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#4
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I say yes. |
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Aug 22 2007, 08:49 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Umm... why worry about the blindfold? Have said mage use Astral Perception. The blindfold shouldn't be an issue then.
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Aug 22 2007, 08:53 PM
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#6
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Alas, it still is. Because despite the fact that Astral Perception isn't "sight", shit that blocks your vision still blocks that.
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Aug 22 2007, 08:54 PM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
astral perception does not let you see through solid objects.
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Aug 23 2007, 12:03 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Besides, not all Mystic Adept types have astral perception.
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Aug 23 2007, 12:23 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Mfb is right, astral perception is blocked by solid objects (even sunglasses and windows).
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Aug 23 2007, 12:45 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
This is a common misconception. A careful study of the astral section will reveal that transparent objects retain their transparency in the astral. They may muddy the view a bit, but they are still transparent. Unfortunately this text is so well hidden, and poorly written that people think windows are opaque. Granted, the text is poor enough that GMs and players may disagree. |
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Aug 23 2007, 12:52 AM
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#11
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
But it does let you "see" out of your hands, your butt, and any other part of you, though the eyes are the most common focal point of Astral Perception. |
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Aug 23 2007, 01:09 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
If you have a page number, I would be very happy because Synner is very sure that windows/sunglasses block astral sight. |
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Aug 23 2007, 01:10 AM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I wouldn't mind seeing a quote as well.
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Aug 23 2007, 01:11 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i've never heard that. where's that ruled? |
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Aug 23 2007, 01:50 AM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Why would a blindfold keep a mage who is astrally perceiving from seeing? Astral perception trumps the eyes not working, so it should equally trump having the eyes covered.
As far as casting, I say he could cast death touch, but not manabolt via touch but not sight. |
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Aug 23 2007, 01:53 AM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
People who don't have eyes and who never had eyes and who don't have eyes in their astral bodies can use astral perception just fine. Things that don't have heads can use astral perception just fine. (Possessed) Chairs can use astral perception. Eyes are not a prerequisite to astral perception. A blindfold won't stop a possessed chair from casting a spell at you. Chair's don't even have faces. You have to cover the entire chair. One good example is Shapeshifters. A Shapeshifter's astral body always resembles its animal form, even when it is in human form physically. So while physically it is a bipedal human, astrally it is, for the sake or argument, a quadrupedal cat. And its heads don't line up. Its astral cat head is about in the same place as its physical human crotch. Blindfolding the physical human face does nothing to stop the astral car face from seeing. So, there is really no reason why your idealized astral form can't have astral eyes in its astral hands. Like when dealing with the spellcasting chair, when dealing with a magician you should cover everything, and use a magemask to make projection difficult. |
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Aug 23 2007, 01:55 AM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
blindfolds trump astral perception for the same reason that a brick wall trumps astral perception. the blindfold and the wall are doing the same thing--limiting the caster's vision. in both cases, the caster is not blind per se--he's just unable to see past the obstruction. anything between the caster's eye and his blindfold, he could easily target with a spell. with actual eye-not-working blindness, there's no obstruction; the physical organ simply doesn't work correctly.
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Aug 23 2007, 03:01 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
Please refer to Page 114 of Street Magic. 4th paragraph under Astral Visibility. Transparent or mirrored items in the real world simply impair visibility as astral shadows. The keyword impaired is used as opposed to blocked. I think that the text is poor due to the structure. It speaks almost exclusively about blocking astral vision entirely through cover. Yet it sneaks in the vital exception in the middle of the paragraph where it is very easy to miss. I knew that this passage existed, and I still spent 10+ minutes just trying to find it so I could illustrate it to a GM during a con. |
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Aug 23 2007, 03:33 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
If a blind magician can successfully astrally perceive, then theres no reason having your eyes covered, or closed, would prevent one form astrally perceiving successfully either. |
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Aug 23 2007, 04:25 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
as i stated above, there's a perfectly legitimate reason. blindness is not a physical obstruction. blindfolds are a physical obstruction. you don't need working eyes to astrally perceive, but you do need an unobstructed view. for stylistic reasons, i think i'd bend the rules such that a blind person wearing a blindfold would still be able to astrally perceive, but by a strict reading of the rules, i think they'd actually be astrally blinded by the blindfold.
hyzmarca, i don't believe your argument makes sense in the rules. it effectively gives mages near-perfect 360-degree vision. if that were the case, i think somebody would have said something, because that's going to have a huge effect on many aspects of the game. |
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Aug 23 2007, 04:29 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
GM ruling I'd say, but it's not exactly Powergamer-ish is it to turn your Manabolt into Death Touch. My GM would allow it even if technically speaking it shouldn't be doable. Just get Death Touch too. You can overcast it all day and not worry about drain that much. Well, maybe at Force 12... I don't think Astral Projection/Perception counts as third-person perspective, letting you see everything at once. |
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Aug 23 2007, 04:35 AM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
A lot of these arguments, if true, would make the Mage Mask a non-item.
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Aug 23 2007, 04:51 AM
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#23
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It would have a huge impact if there were facing rules. It just so happens that, thankfully, SR4 lacks facing rules, as do every other edition that I am aware of. Now, without facing rules, everyone has 360 degree vision by default. This is, in fluff, accomplished by a a miraculous and amazing technique called swiveling your waist and turning your head. When making general visual perception check, it can me assumed that the PCs are swiveling their waists and turning their heads, giving themselves 360 degree vision. Really, the only thing this assumption does is make mage masks slightly less effective, as a full-body covering would be necessary. However, to be fair, I might make a character choose the focal point of his astral perception at chargen and deny the ability to change it. |
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Aug 23 2007, 05:06 AM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Well mfb, a mage can't cast LOS spells if he closes his eyes either. But he can astrally perceive and see things with his eyes closed. His eyelids are an obstruction in the astral too. You can't see through living things any more than you can see through a wall. So, that means mages have to keep their eyes open while perceiving too.
What if the mage doesn't have any eyes at all? Because of some sort of accident? |
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Aug 23 2007, 05:06 AM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you don't need facing rules. you just need the understanding that the modifiers in the book apply to creatures with a field of vision at least passingly similar to that of an unmodified human. there's a huge, huge difference between being able to look in any direction at any time, and being able to see in every direction at all times. nothing in SR i've ever seen suggests that you look at the astral through anything except your eyes--working or not. adding that in is a major change to the fluff, even if you discount the impact on the rules.
Tarantula, i think it's probably up to the GM whether or not closing your eyes--or covering your eyes with your hand, or whatever--blocks your own astral perception. someone who doesn't have any eyes at all would be, in the rules, blind, just as if they had non-working eyes. the rules for being blind would apply to an eyeless person they way they do to any other blind character. they would perceive the astral from the portion of their face where their eyes normally would reside. what in the rules suggests to you that there's a difference between having your vision blocked by a brick wall and having your vision blocked by a blindfold? |
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