area of effect spells and LOS Options

[Kazum]

Well what is with spells like the stunball ? When a mage targets it at the three foes direktly in front of him, and his friends are in the area of effect but NOT in the LOS (behind the mage, who is also in the AOE) Are they gonna be stunned as well? And is the make stunned as well ? Friends in LOS and AOE are certainly to be stunned, right?

[Fortune]

LOS is what is important. Anyone actually in the line of sight of the caster (and also in the area of effect) will be affected. Anyone not in direct line of sight will not be affected, even if in the area of effect.

Note that if the area of effect includes the caster, he is always considered to be within LOS of himself.

[Ol' Scratch]

Right. It's "area of effect" in that it can affect multiple targets in a specific area, but the magician still needs to see them all in order to do so (or more correctly, it only hits the ones he can see in that area). Indirect Combat Spells with an AoE effect are the sole exclusion to this rule; the only thing the caster needs to see in that case is the primary target. Everything within range of the area gets blasted.

[hobgoblin]

in effect turning indirect AOE spells into magical hand grenades...

[Kazum]

better than handgranates, cause you can't throw em back as easy as a handgranade...

can u give me an example for an indirect spell ? Have my books not at hand.

[Ol' Scratch]

Fireball.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Fortune]

Don't underestimate the ability to affect unseen targets. And the secondary effects of spells like lightning bolt can be devastating to things with electronics, like drones.

Keep in mind that another benefit of Indirect Spells is that they are not all-or-nothing, like the Direct Spells. Even if the defender gets more hits than the caster, he may still take damage, which doesn't happen with manaball-type Spells.

[DTFarstar]

Forgive me for being ignorant, but how does that work? If Bob gets 5 successes on his Reaction test and Billy the Mage gets 3 successes on his HellBlast(was that AoE or single target? I can't remember, we're saying AoE for this example though- Also props to anyone who gets the reference) at Force 5 does Bob then resist 3 damage?


Chris

[Fortune]

The spells DV is set by Force.

With Direct Spells, if the target equals or beats the caster's 'hits', then there is no effect. It just doesn't stage down past the base Force/DV.

With Indirect Spells, this is not the case, and the damage must be fully staged down to nothing, even if the target's 'hits' exceeed those of the caster.

edit: HellBlast was an Area Effect spell. ;)

[FriendoftheDork]

Yes but the drawback is that the target gets two chances to stage down - first with the reaction test and then using body+half impact armor.

And the caster usually have to stage down MORE damage than his targets (albeit usually stun). To get the enemy to stage down as much damage as him he would have to cast the spell with force 9, which basically means overcasting (thus almost as dangerous as the fireball itself) or being an extremely powerful magician.

Would lowering the drain to force/2+3 completely unbalance these spells? Assuming you also lower the drain on Powerball, manaball, and other direct area-affect spells with drain force/2+3.

It would probably be easier to lower drain to +4 instead of +3, but that's still a bit too much to resist IMO.

Admittadly, not a perfect soluation but as it is I can't see the reason the mage would want to pick these spells, much less cast them.

[DTFarstar]

Because casting a Force 8 Lightning Ball to disable 3 vehicles and kill about 15 people is just cool and with a hard-core mage, that's only about 4 Physical, so if it's at the end it's not a bad choice.


It's situational, but they are usually more effective than grenades and with a DicePool of 13 or so on the soak it's not a bit deal to stage it most of the way down.


Chris

[SCARed]

just to throw in my 5 Cts:

indirect combat spells are (rulewise) used like ranged weapons, IIRC - its no difference if someone shoots with a grenade launcher or casts a fireball. so if the target scores more hits on his reaction test (which is not very likely, but possible) than the caster on his spellcasting test, the target completly dodges the spell, IMHO.

and for the high drain: one has to pay for what one gets - and indirect combat spells can be quite nasty, i think. lowering the drain will lead to somethink like Karl Kombatmage XXIII - magicians throwing high level fireballs for minutes without even some sweat. well, not in my shadowrun ... (the mage has still the chance to use flamethrower or lightning bolt, ... if he wants/needs elemental effects).

[Big D]

The catch is, right now Karl is throwing around less flashy but more effective (against living targets) Powerballs and Stunballs, which require LOS to every target, but go after Will and don't get the second soak roll.

Hence, people gripe about Power/Stun being too powerful. :)