 Martial Arts in Shadowrun, Will they be in Arsenal? |
  |
 Aug 24 2007, 07:51 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615  |
I liked the Cannon Companion's martial arts section. Any word on whether something similar will be in Arsenal? I've always wondered about the secret martial arts techniques from "The Tome of Terrin"....I suspect they may represent new adept powers or metamagic techniques.
|
 |
 
|
|
Aug 24 2007, 08:37 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
They probably will be, though I'm not sure it's been officially announced.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 12:20 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
I certainly hope so.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 12:42 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Gah! I'd prefer not, though I can't really complain if they're nice and optional as I don't want to deny anyone else the rules they want... Personally though, I'm quite happy with it being abstract and players being able to describe their character's fighting style however they choose. Plus real world martial arts styles don't translate into convenient game mechanics. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 01:38 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Very true that. Personally, I'd just like something a tad bit more detailed than the martial arts specialization, plus maybe a few maneuvers to boot (bought with karma, like spells). Something simple, but that adds some more flavor. I'd make my own, but I don't want to have to retcon if/when official rules come out that I like. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 25 2007, 02:00 PM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Snakehandler Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,454 Joined: 28-April 06 From: London, England Member No.: 8,508 |
True - but neither do real world shooting techniques. Neither does anything from the real world. Nor anything sort of based on the real world, like hacking VR systems. Neither does magic, once people start trying to be creative. So the impossibility of real-world-super-realistic translation notwithstanding, what I like about the martial arts rules is this: without them, if two dudes square off unarmed, just for example, it's largely a matter of who rolls better or more dice. There is little opportunity for players to skillfully choose the best move for the situation - it's just a dice war. That's why I always prefer more complex, advanced rules for all manner of combat. Granted, maybe I should be playing a more rules-heavy, combat focused game - goodness knows there are some insanely complex and detailed combat systems out there. But then, no one HAS to use the more complex rules anyway. What someone said about hoping any martial arts rules are optional - it's a table-top RPG - ALL rules are optional, depending on the GM (and maybe the players, if I'm nice...). A million votes for Martial Arts rules in Arsenal. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 25 2007, 02:06 PM
Post
#7
|
|||||
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm sorry, but adding in bought maneuvres is another principle that I don't like. "My character has a six in unarmed combat. She's studied six widely different martial art disciplines and blends them seamlessly." "Does she have the Powerful Kick manuever?" "... Well, no." |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 25 2007, 02:19 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." :P
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 02:33 PM
Post
#9
|
|||||||
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Uh, that was me, in the post you just quoted. I'll not complain too much about optional rules because I recognize that other people want them and it doesn't impact on me too much. But to say that "all rules are optional" misses a couple of important points. Firstly, if a rule is presented as a core rule, then it makes it more difficult for a GM when a player assumes that they can have it and resents not being allowed to use it. Secondly, it means that you have to keep branching your own game from official material. When all the Missions adventures etc., include it because it is "core" then you get an increased headache. These are why it's important for rules that are meant to be optional to be explicit as such.
And it would be equally cumbersome to try and come up with gun-fu rules to represent different styles of shooting. I say "something would be bad in area A" and you respond with "Ah ha! But it would also be bad in area B... so we should do it!" I don't really get that. I can't really think of many maneuvers in gunfire that couldn't be covered by the specialisation rules as it mainly pertains to different types of gun. Similarly, I can't think of much in the melee rules that wouldn't also be covered by the specialisation rules. Character does a lot of wrestling? Unarmed Combat (Grapple) Character fights defensively alot? Unarmed Combat (Parrying) or actually put the ranks in Dodge, rather than Unarmed Combat which would also represent such an approach. Want to specialise in opponents that are taller than you? Smaller than you? Armoured? Armed? All doable and easily represented. Adding in greater granularity in the melee rules typically risks one of the two following consequences: 1. Escalating power - you now have to put more BP or karma into collecting the extra skills that will make you the good hand-to-hander that you want to be. A character with just Unarmed Combat 6 is no longer the world class expert he was, until he's also gone and got the extra maneuvers. This has knock on effects in a game where melee is the weak sister to all the guns and magic flying around (as it should be if you want to be realistic). 2. Decreased power - characters are limited by the rules saying that they need X, Y and Z to do such and such a technique. And it binds character description to these techniques where it is detrimental to do so - see my previous post. "Meh" to martial arts rules in Shadowrun supplements. All they do is get in my way of me describing combat in a realistic manner and encourage players to spend more points specialising in getting shot by people more than twenty feet away. I'm not going to begrudge anyone wanting or using these rules if IMR print them. But don't tell me they're a good thing! Yeugh! -K. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Aug 25 2007, 02:48 PM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
If they're included in Arsenal, odds are they'll be optional as opposed to core. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 25 2007, 03:22 PM
Post
#11
|
|||||
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm sure if there are any martial art rules in there, that they will be. I was just responding to the comment about all rules being optional as if it there were no reason for anything to be explicitly made optional in the books. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 25 2007, 03:41 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
I have to admit I've always been very fond of purchased maneuvers as a game mechanic. However unrealistic they may be, they're a very nice way to allow specialization. Martial arts are, after all, often focused more on offense or defense; kick- or punch- or throw-focused; more suited for one situation or another; translate well to one form of weapon or another... Maneuvers let you specialize your character however you'd like. A decent GM will stop an annoying plumber of a player from abusing the rules (or punish them for it), while a roleplaying or character-developing player can get a lot of mileage out of it.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 04:11 PM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Some of us would really like to see better rules to translate styles that we have seen, read about, or practiced.
For example, I've studied Escrima on an off since 1991. Right now I'm taking a Modern Arnis class and loving it. The thing about Escrima/Arnis/Kali is that the style teaches techniques that work with rattan sticks/machetes/short swords, knives, and open hand. AND the maneuvers you commit to muscle memory work almost exactly the same if you are using one stick, two sticks, stick and knife, stick and open hand, knife and open hand, two knives, or two open hands. For something like that in SR, you'd need Unarmed(Escrima), Blades(Escrima), Clubs(Escrima), AND have to split your dice pool in half when using two weapons. See, the mechanics just fall apart in this type of scenario. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 04:16 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
Studying filipino martial arts? Being filipino I've wanted to learn arnis/eskrima for a while but it's tough finding a teacher.
Game mechanics-wise it could be abstracted away but that's not as satisfying. Honestly I don't think Arsenal could include a full-fledged martial arts supplement but a few optional rules, some manuevers we could work with, might spice up the melee aspect of combat. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 04:25 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Melee combat skills don't have open specializations.
They have a fixed set and that's it... |
|
|
|
| Guest_It trolls!_* |
Aug 25 2007, 04:26 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Guests |
I think it is also a matter of how much melee combat is a central point of your games. I for one would stick with knasser and would refrain from using any special move based martial arts rules mainly because in my games most fights are based around ranged combat and everybody knows what happens to the guy who brings a knife to a gunfight...
In that matter I'd say it's a decision you have to make within your group whether you'd like to focus on melee a bit more. And let's not forget that physical adepts have a great range of different melee-based "special moves" if that's the aspect you're thinking about. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 04:42 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The knife guy stabs the gun guy to death before dying of his own wounds?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 05:20 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If they are (and they should be since you can already specialize in a particular martial art with Unarmed Combat with no cited reason for why), I really hope they're redone from the ground up rather than being a rehash of the Cannon Companion rules.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 25 2007, 05:38 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Look at how stupid you are. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 25 2007, 06:20 PM
Post
#20
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Hyzmarca is a lot closer to the truth than you think. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 25 2007, 10:01 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 11-October 04 Member No.: 6,743 |
personally I always liked the "the knife guy whips his knife at the throat of gun boy"
(picture the scene at the end of V for Vendetta in SR, I actually LOVE letting things like that happen because the underdogs are my favorite) |
|
|
|
|
Aug 26 2007, 12:19 AM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I like underdogs... provided they're not underdogs only due to their own stupidity. Bringing a knife when you know there's likely to be a gunfight isn't likely to draw any sympathy points from my withered li'l heart.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 26 2007, 01:14 AM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
"Well, God bless your crooked little heart/St. Louis got the best of me/I miss your broken-china voice..."
All this fuss over martial arts. Tsk! Before the Cannon Companion SR didn't even have martial arts rules worth speaking of. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 26 2007, 01:36 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Is it 10 below and falling, AH? By the Riverside motel? You know, I heard you gotta hold on...
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 26 2007, 02:15 AM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes they did. All the variations of the Unarmed Combat skill represented it just fine in exactly the same amount of abstraction that the rest of the rules are based on. Special rules for specific martial arts simply aren't necessary. But the infrastructure is already in place (again, see the Unarmed Combat specialization options in the main book), so there's an unfortunately high chance that we'll be getting another set of easily broken rules again. Hence the general disdain. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 18th April 2024 - 09:52 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.