Mages, and those who play them., and those who hate them. Options

[DTFarstar]

I personally play a mage in the one game I play in (currently on hiatus because two players are backpacking through Europe) and I have 2 mages and one mystic adept in the game that I run. I would really appreciate it if this thread could be used for three things.

1) Talk about your mage and how they contribute to the party. Are they combat, support, manipulation, or all of the above? Temperment? Do they for the rest of the party to chip in on bound spirits or is it a personal thing? For that matter does your group chip in for the Sammy's bullets? I would also love if people having examples of PC mages would be willing to post them here. I have a feeling my mage is just a bit too specific, I don't know. I would like to get an idea how others play their mages and what skills they bother to have what cyber they use(if any) etc.

2) Talk about mages who you wish had never been born. If you have had a mage steal the spotlight, make you burn edge, etc. Vent your spleen here. If you think they are overpowered, tell us how and why.

3) List any house rules you have for mages, spells added or taken away, does your GM(or do you) strictly follow the visual modifiers for spellcasting and how do you deal with Astral Space? I've had alot of trouble describing it.



I hope to get some interesting input.
Thanks to any who respond,

Chris

[Zhan Shi]

I don't hate mages, but don't like them either. I prefer adepts, or mystic adepts, grounded in the physical world (but with astral sight). I like the concept of heroes battling "Things That Should Not Be" trying to cross over to the gaiasphere.

[kzt]

I tend to spend the extra points when creating an adept so they are a mystic adept strictly so they can have counterspelling.

My person opinion is that mages are grossly overpowered, though less so that in 3rd. And are way too cheap. Gaining the ability to invisibly and inaudibily kill people, blow up buildings and armored vehicles, as well as summon minions who are extremely lethal and difficult to take down; to invisibly recon remote and guarded targets; defend against magic that would otherwise kill you dead; and build magical barriers that people will pay for sure seems like something that is just as valuable as not being able to be poisoned by one synthetic poison, don't you?

[DTFarstar]

Don't forget that while the quality is only 15 BPS it takes a HELL of alot more BPs and karma to actually DO what you were talking about so that really wasn't an apt comparison. Not to mention I think Immunity costs too many BPs anyway. I think the main reason mages get a bad rep as being overpowered is because of Stunbolt, and the fact that alot of GMs forget to include good magical security. Stunbolt/Manabolt/Powerbolt well... they ARE really good. The magical security is something people need to really get on top of though. My GM in the game I play in just doesn't know magic in SR that well so neglects it alot and it makes my character alot more powerful than he really should be. Background counts never come into play, neither do any of the FAB's, or really anything besides counterspell. Hell, the two mages we've fought against have knocked themselves unconscious via Drain while I stayed in the back counterspelling the party and giving combat sense to most of them. (Combat Sense is WONDERFUL when someone is Indirect AoEing you while other people shoot at you.


Chris

[DTFarstar]

Also, I'll post a general description and playstyle for Zeiner as well as his character sheet sometime tommorrow.


Chris

[Ol' Scratch]

1) I usually fill support roles with my magicians, avoiding Combat Spells other than ones to take on spirits and other astral threats. Magical defense is my main objective most of the time, followed up by filling in the void of things only magic can do (Trid Phantasm, Shapechange, Turn to Goo, etc). I let the combat types handle combat, the techies handle the tech, and the faces handle the... facing. Well-rounded specialists are more valuable than pure generalists in my experience, and most magicians I see around here are either the later or one-trick pony specialists. Bad move.

2) I don't see them as being overpowered. Just different, with their own reprecussions and considerations. The only time they're overpowered is when a GM doesn't know how to handle magic and lets magicians get away with murder. Or those who are too much of a pussy to say "no" when things get out of hand despite what the rules say (or, more often than not, don't say).

3) The biggest house rule I have is a carry over from the past; spells are still learned at a given Force, which is the max Force you can cast them at. No limit as to what Force you learn them, and overcasting rules apply normally. Likewise, magicians may learn spells with geasa limitations (replacing fetish limitations) for either the cost of learning the spell and/or lowering the Drain Value (one each). These geasa apply only to that specific spell and if the geasa is broken, you can't cast that spell. If the geas is the same as those for other spells or for things like staving off Magic Loss, the normal rules apply.

[kzt]

Since only about 1 person in 1000 is a mage per SM, and most are not combat mages, how reasonable is it there going to be an opposing combat mage in any given situation?

In terms of magical security, even wards run into that, as a mage working full time can't maintain more than 30 force 4 wards (assuming the caster is magic 6, this is one 35x35x10 foot room per ward). This means that a mage who spends 8 hours 5 days a week doing just wards can manage to sort-of fully ward a 160 foot square 1 story building. Which can then be casually obliterated by a powerball, as mana barriers don't protect nonliving objects, like the ward anchor.

This does tend to result in the mage being very effective as it is highly unlikely that someone without a combat mage providing counterspelling will get more successes on their 3 dice than the mage gets on his 10 dice.

[Ol' Scratch]

1/1,000 is the numbers for the general population. Naturally, some areas are going to have greatly skewed numbers compared to others. High-paying corporate jobs, including security, will have a lot more mages per capita than, say, janitorial jobs. So while most people will rarely run into one, shadowrunners will be running into them left and right.

[kzt]

[Ol' Scratch]

[Big D]

Which is where lots of spirits and QRFs come in handy.

[kzt]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[toturi]

[Ol' Scratch]

A-yup. That would definitely have been the point I was trying to make.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Ol' Scratch]

[toturi]

[darthmord]

The other problem with this "arbitrary" numbers is that he was assuming an even distribution of mages across the entire population.

There won't be. Some areas simply won't have mages because they left those areas for better opportunities / employment. The major metropolitan areas would have a much higher concentration of mages per capita than a rural area in the backwoods of no-where.

Demographics rarely aligns nicely with overall averages.

[Gelare]

People, honestly, there will always be a number of security mages at a given run site equal to the number the GM thinks will make the runners' lives miserable. Let's not forget what game we're playing, here. Sure, mages are rare, and sure, almost every single one of them with or without a SIN is going to be willingly or unwillingly employed at a big corp because that's how the big corps roll, but in the end what matters is the GM making sure the party's mage doesn't sit, invisible and silent, on a nearby hilltop, steadily Force 1 Powerballing the building to pebbles.

Which, by the way, I would find tremendously entertaining. I almost always play mages, and not just because they seem to be overpowered in every system I've played. I'm sure Street Magic has all sorts of neat magical defenses, but I only have SR4, and my group has two SR4s between the five of us and that's what we play with, so magical defense usually involves a couple spirits, one bouns one not, and a friendly neighborhood sec mage. As for me, I usually try to take all the staple spells - Levitate, Improved Invisibility, Increase Reflexes, Powerbolt, Stunball, and maybe Heal. It's really amazing what four initiative passes and low-force Stunballs will do to an enemy security force.

[Draconis]

[Fortune]

[Draconis]

[Adarael]

1 Million nuyen invested in cheesecake company. This is a man who likes his fucking cheesecake.

[Marwynn]

1) I've only been playing my Mage for a few months.

Somehow I always seem to fill in the secondary role of Face too, the high Charisma scores usually give that away and I do like having a Mage that can be smooth and slick without spellcasting.

My first mage is the all-round supporter. He had three Combat Spells in his repertoire of 16 (by the time we wrapped it up), and they were Powerbolt, Stunball, and Fireball to cover almost all the necessary stuff.

Beyond that he had all the goodies Mages dished out. He could shoot with his Automatics 4 (+2 Assault Rifles) and another +2 from Smartlinks, more than enough with his Agility 4, but primarily he was the guy making the corpsec shoot each other in the butts, and so on.

He was also very good at Infiltration, so with a Spirit running Concealment on everyone in the 4-man group we were pretty safe. With First Aid too he was able to act in many support roles. I don't think he stole the spotlight, but he was in the leadership role due to his Face duties and his supporting abilities.

I don't have the character sheet with me, we've moved on and he wasn't really as well-made as I would've liked.

And yes, we pooled our resources. But paying for the Sammy's bullets? That is where Mr. Johnson picks up the tab. Standard contract has the Johnson pay for bullets, medical supplies, one-shot stuff, and even maintenance after the job. Gives us access to hard-to-get munitions like APDS when we needed it with the caveat that we couldn't keep the stuff.

But sure, if we were doing some work on our own we pooled the money together. That Mage still had Binding as a skill which I didn't like to do that often, but everyone chipped in when they wanted that extra power.


My new mage is a bit different. He's still a Face/Mage as the group has relied on me for thar role and no one is too interested in sipping tea with Hong Kong's elite.

This guy is far less powerful. His stats are still in flux but they are based on a razorguy who pulls himself out of the streets applying his natural charisma (and ruthless streak) and awakens when he starts hitting the big time. He falls off the charts so to speak, retreating, and tries to find a tradition suitable for him but fails. Even Chaos Magic doesn't really jive.

Would you believe the power he first manifested wasn't Lightning Bolt or Mind Probe, and so on, but was in fact Fashion? When he was down on his luck he worked for the Hong Kong sweatshops as a supplier of higher-grade counterfeits. He could cast Force 4 Fashion all day and not worry about Drain, it brought in the :nuyen: and he always looked good.

Right now, his magical abilities are a hodge-podge of stuff. His first instinct was to develop combat spells but they proved far too difficult, almost contrary, for his nature. So he needed Fetishes for them. He has a Geas of meditation, a period of self reflection. He's also addicted to escapist drugs and deepweed, to counter his inability to properly astrally project and perceive. A lot of issues that are mental blocks caused by his inability to simply fit in, a recurring theme in his life.

He's weaker, and even though he's supposedly a tough guy, my other mage could kick his lily ass so to speak. But he's far more interesting. I think he has 3-4 combat spells out of his starting 8-10. As I said, still in flux. He'll be weak in combat, comparitively, but we're toning that down so we may have something to, ahem, shoot for later on.

This razor/face/mage isn't even sure how his 'ware is interfering with his Magical abilities; he purchased Muscle Toner 2 and Tailored Pheremones after he awakened thinking he could use it as an edge.