 Emergence Review, Is it good? |
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 Aug 29 2007, 05:16 AM
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#151
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093  |
In Emergence, not the SR4 book. The people blame almost everybody and everything. Emergence says that a lot of resentment, fear, anger, was just bottled up and when Technomancers "came out" they were natural targets. They came about after the Crash 2.0 so clearly they had something to do with it. Or with the AI that was the source of it. They're pawns! No, they're demons! No, it doesn't say in SR4 that TMs are looked at weirdly. And it is odd that this would happen in that day and age with all the other crap flowing around. But I did like the explanation of sheer human ignorance and fear being the cause of such panic. That, and the fear-mongers who stood to profit from it. And really, one more utterly divisive thing that can split a species in two was just more fuel for the dystopian fire of SR's world. Plus, the fact that it was just a cover-up for AIs really put the cyberpunk cherry on top of the whole story. |
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Aug 29 2007, 05:23 AM
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#152
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
OK, I'm not going to go into this back and forth thing. My only point is that no where does it say that Novatech is blamed. Unless you've got a reference which would be all find and dandy. In the words of Mr Tarturo from Joe vs the Volcana: "Im not arguing that with you." Besides, before Emergence, how could they blame technomnacers. No one knew about them before Emergence. |
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Aug 29 2007, 05:33 AM
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#153
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
SR4 takes place years and years after Crash 2.0 and no one even dislikes technomancers, let alone suspects them of causing the crash. In Emergence from one chapter to the next technomancers are suddenly getting hunted down with no other explanation than "the media is linking them to Crash 2.0."
Now I know people are dumb, especially right after a major disaster, but Emergence is suggesting that it would be like if Bush came on the news today and said that the Norwegians were actually behind the attack on the World Trade Center in 2001. Would everyone go berserk and start hunting down Norwegians and everyone who suspected of being a Norwegian? |
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Aug 29 2007, 06:00 AM
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#154
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Well, if Bush manages to convince the entire U.S. that the Irak supported Al Quaida and had weapons of mass destruction hidden that haven't been found till today, I would guess that he would really manage to make the American people fight the Norwegians... Which either proves that Bush really is the most genious politicians that the Americans ever had, or more saddly, that the current generation of voters in America have all suffered a massive critical glitch when making their oppossed test vs. bullshit. :|
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Aug 29 2007, 06:09 AM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
No, it takes place 6 years after the Crash. Not "years and years" which would imply decades. People are still homeless, a lot of people lost their jobs, there was anarchy, fear, and uncertainty. They've only just started to put their lives together. They don't BLAME technomancers because for the most part they don't know about them. SR4 didn't deal with it well, perhaps they didn't know what they wanted to do with Emergence specifically. But that's not proof of anything. That's just omission. Fear, loathing, fear, anger, fear, and bad memories make people dumb. It's not as if it happened to another generation of people, these are the same people who had to adopt the new Matrix. These are the same people who probably know someone who lost loved ones during the Crash or after it. These are every day people afraid that something bad is going to happen again. And then a lot of innocent people die in Hong Kong. They were killed by these new Technomancers, people who apparently gained their powers after the Crash 2.0. And yes, if Bush showed proof that Norwegians were actually responsible people would still go berserk. You're discounting a lot of human emotion here. Also, not a lot of people's lives changed directly because of those attacks. No one was suddenly a nobody with their SIN gone. What you're implying is that people should've moved on with their lives after going through a global upheaval. Your issue here isn't with the Technomancers, it's with metahuman nature. |
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Aug 29 2007, 06:26 AM
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#156
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,873 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Iraq ... Al Qaeda .... genius ... opposed |
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Aug 29 2007, 06:37 AM
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#157
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Okay, next time, I won't listen to "The Last Unicorn" while browsing the internets. :P
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Aug 29 2007, 06:43 AM
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#158
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
There are those who claim that in the original concept the machines didn't use the humans as power source (which is indeed ridiculous) but instead used their connected brains as a massive organic parallel processor array - basically, the humans were running the Matrix trapping them with their own brains. This was allegedly dropped because the makers believed a majority of the audience would'nt understand what "parallel processing" or "distributed computing" was and the "humans as batteries" approach was taken instead... |
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Aug 29 2007, 06:49 AM
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#159
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Nope that's perfectly acceptable. But just because it's a classic right up there with The Hobbit. |
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Aug 29 2007, 07:16 AM
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#160
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Figures. That's exactly what some of us came up with when we left the cinema. We said that this would have been an obvious idea to use. Hollywood's desperate attempts to catch both ends of the bell curve as usual. :( I think people are going to have to stop wailing on Buster for his point about lack of background. It is the case that without having played through third edition, Emergence makes less sense, and that there isn't really anything in SR4 that prepared groups for a sudden change in the acceptability or understanding of technomancers. This can't honestly be denied. SR4 has been out for two years give or take a month. It's going to be hard for anyone who's been playing for a while to suddenly say "Oh by the way, Technomancers are hated and villified and mysterious, I forgot. Jim [TM player], your elf girlfriend dumps you." That's why I proposed revealing an AI origin as a more believable way to bring about the events in Emergence for those that want to use it. No ret-conning needed. Though actually, I'm safe from all of this as I've banned TM's in my game. They made hackers feel stupid. |
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Aug 29 2007, 08:18 AM
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#161
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Do you read what other people write? I said I wasn't even trying hard and that I was singling out Muslims to keep it simple... I even mention how easy it would have been to drag out the figures for bigotry and hatemongering against Hispanics and Blacks (I could just as easily have added Asians and homosexuals). You made a broad statement and your own post shows it's so much bull. ´ How can you possibly defend that the age of bigotry is long gone and then cite documents that claim hate crimes against minorities (those that are even reported) are increasing at a stupendous rate? Bigotry is alive and well, humanity certainly has not moved on, and after 9/11 people are still shouting slogans of hatred and fear (as well as throwing pipe bombs and setting fire to houses of god).
Possibly because there are significant differences between the situations, just in case you missed the obvious: Arguably the single most devastating act of deliberate violence perpetrated by a Muslim fundamentalist groups was the ramming of two planes into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon resulting in the death of 3000+ innocents (one could argue the deaths of many thousands of people at the hands of the Taliban in Afganistan was worse but it wasn't as visible). For all the loss, trauma and hurt, anyone half-informed soon understood the hows and whys behind the attacks and at least how they were perpetrated - measures could be taken to try to prevent their repeat. The Crash 2.0 and those behind it were directly responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people all over the world, the destruction or damaging the livelihoods of millions for months or years - this is devastation that hasn't been seen in the Real World since World War Two scale and in SR since the First Crash. It is spread across the globe and virtually no one is untouched. In one day more people die and are hurt as the result of the actions of Otaku than in all the years of Islamic fundamentalism put together, and to make it worse (just like the original Crash) even the best corporate computech egghead still doesn't know how Jormungand did what it did (somethings actually impossible by their standards) and how Ex Pacis otaku were able to create it - which means they could do it again and there's no means of prevent a repeat. Now despite what the current American administration seems to think there's nothing to be gained in incarcertaing Muslims and torturing to finding out how they work so that you can avoid. In Shadowrun there is much to be gained, in more senses than one, in incarcertaing technomancers and torturing to finding out how they work so that you can avoid. Corporations don't just want to prevent a repeat, they want to learn to control technomantic ability. Hence manipulation of the media to feed initial knee jerk hysteria and cover their ongoing pogroms.
They don't appear organized, mainly because they're insane, but who knows what just one of them can do on his own? Or who's actually pulling their strings? Maybe they are just the flesh puppets of an organized force in the Matrix - a force that last time it was unleashed killed thousands...
No, it isn't. What is common knowledge, in the absence of fact, is what people gleem from the news. What is common knowledge is that technomancers can and do identity rape you with a thought, they can and do pry into your most secure private data at will, they can and do kill you at a whim as you ride an elevator, can and do turn your cybernetics or your car's Pilot against you, they can and do subvert computer systems and cause chaos and devastation similar to the Crash in all respects. The point is there is no common knowledge. There is no reference. Otaku were the closest thing and to the man on the street they were never more than urban myths (and to the corps how they did what they did remains a mystery). Technomancers are unknowns - and they are powerful and apparently schizophrenic unknowns. Who the heck knows what they can ultimately do? Yes, magicians can do much the same, but with magicians people have had 60 years to understand that there are rules and limits to magic - and even now they are viewed with suspicion and magophobia is a recurring element in Shadowrun and magic does not (necessarily) drive its users insane. No one knows the rules and limits of technomancy and the way the media is telling it - each one of these freaks hiding amongst you using his mind alone is just as powerful as a elite hacker, requires no technology to command technology, and is an unstable ticking time bomb capable of destroying hospitals and ravaging city grids.
And Joe Average knows Technomancers are true threats because he knows several of tehm and INN just reported that technomancers are actually wimpy rules-wise and even with Threading a single good hacker is a fair match until the technomancer calls on a powerful sprite for help...
You obviously haven't been abroad much or you haven't visited foreign boards... |
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Aug 29 2007, 10:00 AM
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#162
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yeah, anti-americanism is pretty widespread these days. But hey, that's the least to be expected after a war of agression. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:16 AM
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#163
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
I bought Emergence yesterday, and read all the fluff bits last night. I enjoyed it I really did. the hatred of technomancers comes from the HK event, which in the bits from the press keeps being described as like the last Crash all over again. Technomancers are portrayed as vastly powerful, able to easily crash city grids, then the media show pictures of HK and say "It's like the crash 2.0 all over again, Technomancers did this they could do it to your town." Joe average reacts violently and every bit of matirx crap is added to then Technomancer's list of crimes. For example a team of runners disable gridguide during a police chase -technos trying to kill decent people in car crashes and so on and so forth. It's all engineered by the corps and to my mind moderately believable.
The only clumsy bits to my mind are the AIs, the reaction doesn't seem big enough, the writers made technos really mysterious at the start and all the posters were OMG!!!! they use their mind. Then AIs appear and everyone is like meh AIs are here. Seems a little reaction lite to me. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:30 AM
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#164
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, both is a bit extreme since Otaku and AI have been around for a while in the perception of Shadowtalkers. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:37 AM
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#165
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Realistically spoken, AIs are THE threat to human life. They evolve faster than anything else. Once AIs pop up its just a matter of time till they become incredibly intelligent, outwitting anything humans can ever do.
But thats just reality. SR has to rule otherwise out of necessity. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:39 AM
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#166
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Heh, he shouldn't even have to travel, America's as bad as anywhere else - just visit some of the American right wing and neo-fascist boards I dug up when researching for Loose Alliances - the rhetoric is downright scary (and surprisingly intelligent) and active members spouting xenophobic, sexual, ereligious "hatred and fear" are in the thousands - and that's in a supposedly tolerant and PC America today. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:41 AM
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#167
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I disagree, but your reaction is a perfect example of bigotry: you're assuming characteristics and motivations for AIs without knowing anything about them. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:44 AM
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#168
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I dont assume motivation, I talked about intelligence. I did not say that they would want to kill humans or some such. The threat is not a material one but a cultural one.
Humanity would have big problems if it had to live in the shadow of super intelligence that could do everything any human can do in a lifetime in seconds. Human science for example would be totally obliterated. |
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Aug 29 2007, 11:46 AM
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#169
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
See: The Culture.
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Aug 29 2007, 11:50 AM
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#170
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
You're assuming A) great intelligence and B) human intelligence. Those are two significant assumptions. You did read the last chapter in Emergence, right? |
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Aug 29 2007, 12:01 PM
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#171
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure, that's what a part of the last chapter of it said. And that's the level of intelligence they reached within five years of their existence.
What did you do when you were five years old? :P |
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Aug 29 2007, 12:06 PM
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#172
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I read a biography on Alexander Graham Bell. Let's not use me as an example.
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Aug 29 2007, 12:14 PM
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#173
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And spinned a world-wide crisis to your favor? I think not. ;) |
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Aug 29 2007, 12:17 PM
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#174
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
And got chased into an alley, begged for mercy, got shot and died too? |
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Aug 29 2007, 12:26 PM
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#175
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, not everyone at that age lives (or rather, dies) in the US or the UK. |
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