 The Fundamental Problem With Matrix Rules |
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 Aug 30 2007, 05:07 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392  |
Aha! Someone else who hasn't noticed the two tiny mentions of Matrix passkeys in the rule books. Everything is there in the rule books for a complete and consistent game in the Matrix but it is up to the GMs and their players to define how they want to play it. That's good if you ask me. |
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Aug 30 2007, 06:34 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
There are no rules, and hence they don't do anything. And they can be broken via by 12 year olds in a minute when they write rules for them because they inherently need to depend on cryptography. Which doesn't work in SR because the writers have no clue that file encryption is about the least important thing that encryption does on a computer network.
You can achieve the exact same result by saying "Assume there are computers and hackers, and make it interesting". It takes a lot less space and provides about the same amount of work needed for the GM and players. |
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Aug 30 2007, 07:10 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Has it occurred to you that the purpose of Encrypt programs is meant primarily to be file encryption (and transmission encryption, if I'm not mistaken)? So no, nothing they do in the future MUST rely on those encryption rules, because those rules are primarily meant for file encryption.
This statement has no basis in reality. The rules work quite well for us, with only minimal tweaks (to bring the rules in line with the style we use for the rest of the game). Perhaps you don't like the rules, maybe they don't work for you. But to suggest that they are not functional at all is simply false. |
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Aug 30 2007, 08:20 PM
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#29
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
yep, im quoting myself. i made a new thread based on those thoughts. i wonder if i should bother to link it in here... |
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Aug 30 2007, 08:23 PM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 16-August 07 Member No.: 12,685 |
Well to start, I haven't read SR3 in awhile so I'm not sure which restrictions in SR4 you are referring too. As for the lack of any network size over a PAN posing a problem I'm not sure why it would. The book doesn't flat out describe the infrastructure it uses but does pay homage to it here. SR4 p206 Matrix Topology It leaves it nice and opened ended which almost seems intended to me. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:03 PM
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#31
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
PAN, WAN , LAN, Commlink, Device , it's all the same, it all boils down to a GM rolling some dice, and a player rolling some dice, so I want ti to resolve down to
GM Dice Pool versus Player Dice Pool or GM Network/Node versus Player Network/Node I think it's a lot easier to visualize the abstraction level if you think of Nodes as a Network, not a single device. Adding another machine to a network often doesn't make the network that much different. p. 204 "Th e Matrix a complex organism, a vast collection of billions of nodes all linked together in various networks that are themselves linked together." p. 208 "In order to enter some nodes (devices or networks), however— especially private ones—you must actually log in to an account." p. 211 "In active mode, you can both access and be accessed by other nodes (PANs, devices, and networks)." P. 216 "Node—Any device or network that can be accessed." Substituting the word Network for Node in almost all text of the Wireless chapter makes a difference. All this ticky tacky detail of N! Agents on N! Commlinks versus (N+1)! Agents on (N+1)! Commlinks duking it out on the matrix becomes Node X of Rating X versus Node Y of Rating Y. Much simpler math. You can imagine adding one machine and one more copy of software to a Network Backbone doesn't really add much to that network in terms of it's ability to attack or defend against another Network. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:13 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Sure a script kiddie could crack a passkey fairly quickly. However, it then takes a 10/1 day test to counterfeit and use that passkey. At best you are looking at 2 days to copy the passkey (that's with 9/7 and cyber, nanos, and genetech--you could do it in 1 day if you use edge). You also have to possess a passkey or its schematics. Which means you have to find a way to make sure that the target doesn't find out about its security breach for 2 days. It's not a task for script kiddies. Oh, and BTW they do have rules. BBB 215 and 221. As to the second part of your quote why bother playing any game that isn't designed perfectly? Isn't a house rule the same as making it up yourself? The BBB lays the ground work for how the Matrix works and it is up to each group to mold it to their style. My group and several others have found a way. If you can't do so with the current rules then make your own up that work and rip those pages out of your rule book. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:16 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
In using the matrix rules I've found them to be pretty consistant and workable.
The big problem is that hacking gear is too accessible. Hackers end up with systems at character creation that are the 3rd edition equivilent to decks and programs that would were priced in the millions of nuyen. A hacker with these systems can stomp all over anything that isn't rating 6. Worse there is no way to effectively keep a hacker out if you wanted to, short of turning off the node. Changing the mode of the node only delays the hacker by a few seconds. Encryption might as well not exist and once inside a hacker has access to everything. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:24 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: 24-July 07 From: Canada Member No.: 12,350 |
I agree. In general, something rated 4 in SR4 is equivalent to Rating 6 in SR3. I think a starting character Hacker should have maximum 4's across the board out of character creation. |
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Aug 30 2007, 10:33 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You don't need to copy it, you just need to be able to give the right response. There isn't a guard sitting there inspecting it to ensure that's it authentic, it's all based on it giving the right response to a challenge from the host. Which is a decryption roll to figure out, then you slap together a piece of software that gives the right response at the right time. |
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Aug 31 2007, 03:29 AM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
You have one. It is called 'spoof' |
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Aug 31 2007, 04:20 AM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I'll buy that. :) So decryption and spoof.
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Aug 31 2007, 07:45 AM
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#38
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, yeah. That means that the Matrix Backbone in Seattle breaks down after a few people decided to send an agent to search for something. Totally unlikely. :S Look, the whole limits (running programs, connections) that are intrinsic to the rules work only at PAN scale - a single device is as powerful as network, because both qualify as a Node. Leapfrogging Nodes, on the other hand, turn the new and smooth matrix in another SR2 dungeon crawl. |
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Aug 31 2007, 07:59 AM
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#39
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Matrix dungeon crawls are actually a good idea, since they provide an excuse for the decker to actually go with the party. Connecting directly to a target node would be easier than searching it through the dynamic wireless web.
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Aug 31 2007, 08:07 AM
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#40
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And at the same time, they throw the world back into the age of mailboxes. Which does not mesh well with the way the world is described. |
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Aug 31 2007, 09:11 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
Another variant: Cap the effective program rating by logic or logic x 2. Has the value of using the RAW for all hacking rolls, just check if you are smart enough to use the program at its full capacity. |
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Aug 31 2007, 10:21 AM
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#42
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Right now breaking a passkey is never required. I did not miss the few lines on those - a hacker can easily establish his own admin account on any system he chooses to. Thats why passkeys are worthless. Any key that does not depend on hardware can be set by the hacker (I would say that writing emulation software for hardware keys requires access to the key, so those do something).
Right now any file can be decrypted (hardware keys excepted) within seconds. The only usefull (and near failsafe) use of encryption is a high-level agent with high-level encryption software constantly reencrypting a PAN. That does give meaning to the PAN concept, IF all systems on the PAN can run decent encryption ratings (4+ is rather safe, even 3 will usually work). Want secure communication? Set up a secondary comlink network with only the comlinks on the subscriber lists. One comlink runs an encryption agent, all others only encryption software. Devices that need connection to the outside world are still vulnerable, but neither combat drones nor cyberware need that. It would be easier and better to make real-time decryption not an extended test, but one can make RAW work. (The former ideas are for real. But has anyone considered running pilot instead of system on a comlink? Instant self-defense system with YOUR full load of programms at service and matrix combat-ability to boot? A friend of mine "enhanced" the idea by suggesting eyeball-drone-mods that are on your PAN anyway and already have pilot ratings...) |
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Aug 31 2007, 12:30 PM
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#43
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,873 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
The traffic can still be sniffed and decrypted in near real-time. For me, one of the first things that has to happen is the optional rule on decrypting time has to go into effect.. intervals of minutes instead of combat turns. SR4 FAQ Hours/days/months might be more realistic, but it days kinda ruin the ability to get the data in a timely fashion for game play. Combat turns just makes encryption worthless. Minutes provides a better balance. |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:56 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
The way to set the interval for decryption would probably be best if it was based on the relative size/complexity of the file being decrypted. It would still be a matter of GM fiat to determine what interval to use, since there is no canon measurements of file size (rules-wise, that is), but a set of guidelines based on this would be good. Giant file containing complete scientific research data and designs for prototype device: interval 1 week. Text file transciption of phone call: interval 1 IP.
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Aug 31 2007, 01:56 PM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 16-August 07 Member No.: 12,685 |
Decrypting communications seems to be out there to me. If your GM wants to do that rather than jam the communications, that seems to add flavor to the mission rather than be a problem in the rules. I would assumes corps traffic sniff their public areas but for secure sites wouldn't it stand to reason that jamming comlinks would be more effective than having a hacker on hand sniffing traffic and decrypting random signals? If Hacker on hand is more effective then the group should be working with comlinks off anyways. As for someone hacking your group through their PAN's, wouldn't this also add flavor? If this is an aspect of your game then your teams hacker should have agents loaded on everyones comlinks running a high level analyze program so he can be alerted when a hacking attempt is made and intercept it. |
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Aug 31 2007, 02:42 PM
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#46
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
It's not "streamlined", but I still like the idea of the interval increasing with each roll. There was a thread where I had a conversation about this with someone. The idea was the first decryption test only took an action, the next one took a turn, the next one took a minute, then an hour, etc. I forget the progression, but the idea was that a great hacker could still destroy weak encryption, and a weak hacker would be stopped cold by strong encryption, and that whenever the two were roughly evenly matched it would take a matter of hours. (IIRC) edit: Oops, what do you know? It was a thread I started. Anyway, linkage |
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Aug 31 2007, 04:51 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You should be able to attack encrypted files off-line, just copy them locally and go at them until you succeed or get bored. I'd argue that there should be 3 classes of encryption: That which can be broken in essentially real time. (Like some of the Microsoft "pretend encryption" or using really awful keys like "password'), which is not uncommon. That that can be broken in minutes/hours/days (Typically due to poor choice of keys that can be broken by a dictionary attack), which is the most common. That that can't effectively be broken ever without someone inside helping (Military communications) or by managing to become an authorized user in some fashion (most well designed corporate file encryption). The third category should be pretty rare, as really secure systems are very expensive to run and somewhat painful for users. Though as you can hack the system to bypass file encryption it's usually not a major issue for players trying to steal stuff. |
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Aug 31 2007, 05:22 PM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I wonder if encryption should come in grades, like it does in real life. Just change the price structure to an exponential curve and set the interval based on the rating.
Rating 1: cost=free with device, interval = 1IP Rating 2: cost=cheap=100nuyen, interval = 1 turn Rating 3: cost=average=1000nuyen, interval = 1 minute Rating 4: cost=pricey=10000nuyen, interval = 1 hour Rating 5: cost=expensive=50000nuyen, interval = 1 day Rating 6: cost=atmospheric=100000nuyen, interval = 1 week This way your runners and high-level fixers or Johnsons' communications and files are going to have an interval of an hour, maybe a day. A research facility or bank will have an interval of a week. Swat teams will have an interval of a minute. Security guards and other chumps will have an interval of 1 turn. Average wageslaves will have an interval of 1 IP. |
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Sep 1 2007, 09:31 AM
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#49
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You are talking about software - that will be pirated.
There is no easy fix by 'rating'. Personally, I would stay with 1 turn as basic Intervall... but double Intervall for every successive roll and use Rating² as Threshold. Response 6 + Decryption 6 on average produces 4 Hits. Encyryption 1 needs 1 Hit to be broken. This means 1 intervall on average: about 3 seconds, or 1 turn. Encyryption 2 needs 4 Hit to be broken. This means 1 intervall on average: about 3 seconds, or 1 turn. Encyryption 3 needs 9 Hits to be broken. This means 3 intervalls on average: about 21 seconds, or 7 turns. Encyryption 4 needs 16 Hits to be broken. This means 4 intervalls on average: about 45 seconds, or 15 turns. Encyryption 5 needs 25 Hits to be broken. This means 7 intervalls on average: about 6 minutes and 21 seconds, or 127 turns. Encyryption 6 needs 36 Hits to be broken. This means 9 intervalls on average: about 25 minutes and 33 seconds, or 511 turns. |
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Sep 1 2007, 09:58 AM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Lots of really serious 'real time' encryption uses specific hardware today, you could port that over too. |
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