 Hackers vs Technomancers Challenge, Best builds: hackers, hacker-adepts, TMs |
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 Aug 30 2007, 05:13 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869  |
See all the best hackers, hacker-adepts, and technomancers right here! Who's the best at matrix hacking and breaking-and-entering? Can your uberhacker also double as a face, fighter, rigger, medic, or mage?
Rules: 400 BP + 29 Karma + 25000 extra nuyen + 6 months construction time The builds will start with a standard 400 BP starter characters (35 BP limit to pos&neg qualities, 200 BP cap on physical+mental attributes (not including Edge/Res/Magic), limit rating 6 programs/agents/pilots, limit availability 12 gear, etc). Just to factor in initiation, submersion, special gear, construction time, and other variables gotten from a handful of starter runs, each character will also get 29 Karma, 25000 extra nuyen, and 6 months construction time to spend. Sleep compensation powers/cyberware such as Sustenance or Sleep Regulator double the amount of construction time (to 12 months). Programs/agents/pilots are still limited to rating 6 but there is no availability limit to the gear bought with the extra 25000 nuyen or built with the construction time. Assume average hits with construction (1/3 dice pool for hits each interval). Please show itemized BP/Karma/nuyen/construction costs in your builds. Feel free to post alt-builds that use the "Skill + Logic raw-hits-capped-at-Program-rating" hacking house rule. Feel free to post more than one build! Agent Smith Army (houserule) Until the Agent Smith Army problem is solved, we'll have to go with GM fiat: Thou shalt not be connected to more than one commlink at the same time and agents can not run from any other node but that commlink. Dr. Smith Army (houserule) You can not get healed by more than one Medic program at the same time. This post has been edited by Buster: Aug 31 2007, 03:34 PM |
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Aug 30 2007, 05:24 PM
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#2
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Nice one! How are you planning to compare the builds? Straight face off combat using average rolls? Pit them against prepared corporate systems? A well built TM tenda to be a super-specialist is the impression that I get, so no hacker will be able to compete in the TM's chosen area of expertise. How about a couple of systems kept secret until people have posted their favourite builds and then we can see how well they all perform in "real life" -K. |
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Aug 30 2007, 05:55 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That's a cool idea, I wasn't thinking of a specific target run, just general shoutouts like "my build can throw 18 dice at all hacking tests but also has 12 dice pools for face tasks but is a feeb in melee combat", but it would be great to run the builds against some of your awesome data fortresses to see how well they do in the hacking/physical-infiltration tests. Sort of like my Mr. Magoo Challenge but with that MCP rainbow fortress from Tron? :D |
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Aug 30 2007, 06:56 PM
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#4
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Do you want me to whip up some mini-sites / scenarios? Say three or four realistic systems at various grades of nastiness? Will ensure that everything is nice and neutral for all parties? I could email you the sites so you had them in preparation... Would be fun? |
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Aug 30 2007, 07:31 PM
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#5
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Don't forget the Cyber Arena Combat scenarios
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Aug 30 2007, 08:34 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That would be awesome. I wonder if we should just broadcast the system defenses so everyone can see right away what they're building against. I think my Mr. Magoo Challenge got better once everyone started to see what they were up against and could start tweaking their approaches. If you want to do that, you could post your systems on your site with a link here or post them directly here. |
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Aug 30 2007, 08:42 PM
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#7
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I don't mind either way. Let me know what you prefer, it's your call. I wont get them done before the weekend though, so people should go ahead and post their builds in the meantime unless they're feeling really competitive. ;) -K. EDIT: Dire Radiant - Absolutely! There has to be a death match! :) |
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Aug 30 2007, 08:54 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Will the infiltration be completely in the matrix or is there going to be a need to get on site? It could be kept pretty simple like a few infiltration rolls and some hardware rolls to get past guards and locks, maybe some athletics rolls to get past walls or something. A stated site could just have a list of physical barriers and the test to bypass them unless the builds have some other sort of sneaky way to get past. Of course the completely online system would work good too. I'd figure keeping all the stats for the site a secret until the builds are posted and then have the sites posted and then have the hacking start would work better. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:17 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That sounds great to me. Knasser, if you want you could keep the defenses hidden away and then post them after several builds have been posted to see how they make out.
I'm thinking a mix of "pure matrix" and "physical B&E + internal hack" builds would be great, just specify it in your description. Something like "here's a pure matrix specialist, but he'd be stopped cold with some wireless-blocking paint". I'm interested to see if a mage-hacker is a viable build, so I'll post one of my builds as soon as I have some time to flesh him out. I'm new to matrix rules, so I expect he'll be TPK. :( Also, we should nip the Agent Smith Army in the bud. Let's call a house rule that agents and their programs degrade a node they are in or are trying to get in. The best an Agent Smith Army can do is cause a Denial Of Service attack and our goals will be to get into a system and accomplish something or steal something. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:28 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Or we can just limit the hacker to one comm and say that any agents they run have to run from their comm. Or let them have two comms, one for hacking and one for running agents and they can only run agents from one of their commlinks. That would give them a limit for agents without slowing down the target node as that would making hacking in easier. |
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Aug 30 2007, 09:32 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 282 |
How about plain disallowing Agents.
Keeps out unwanted discussion. EDIT: And just to save people some time: Commlink with all stats at six and all programs (6 as well) but agents, clocks in at 109,400 nuyen or just under 22 BP. Writing your own hacking program takes 3 months if you can throw 12 dice at the problem, after that raising your pool to 18 only saves you another month. |
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Aug 30 2007, 11:23 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I updated the first post with a clarification on the Agent Smith Army houserule.
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Aug 30 2007, 11:28 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 282 |
I'm assuming this is also supposed to affect sprites and complex forms ?
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Aug 30 2007, 11:58 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Good point. I think for game balance, we'll have to. And since technomancer magic isn't magic, complex forms have to affect (and be affected by) bandwidth and system performance problems too.
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Aug 31 2007, 12:27 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
One point: limiting TM persona and Sprites with system degredation goes directly against the rules, and is a serious handicap for TMs.
This challange is already slanted very hard towards hackers... Also if that is your ruling then: 1) Do sprites have to be present in node (and thus counted for degredation) to: a) sustain threading b) assist operation |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Hence the term "house rule". My intention is to keep Shadowrun street level rather than turning it into the Lord of the Rings with armies of thousands clashing on commlink nodes. To preserve that philosophy, I would say that a sprite would not need to be on the same node as the TM in order to sustain complex forms or assist operations. However, those sustained complex forms active in the TM's node will degrade that node even if the sustaining sprite is elsewhere.
Broadswiping complaints are not useful to me, I'm not super-familiar with technomancers so if there's a reason why system degradation impairs technomancers significantly more than mundane hackers, I'd like to know about it. |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:11 AM
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#17
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Why 29 Karma? If you were going to shoot for an arbitiary number, most people would go for a nice round number like 30. |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:32 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
I believe the thought is that Technomancers are karma hogs and can't get every program at char. gen. (nor with 29 additional karma) like a a Hacker can. Even what they can get is very expensive. Sprites are their equalizer. If sprites degrade just like agents, a large part of that equalization is gone. |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:39 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
because one of the advantages technomancers have is that they can run as much as they want all the time. literally, all of a technomancer's complex forms are always active. similarly, one of their major advantages is that their sprites *don't* require system resources from anywhere. not to mention those sprites come with built in complex forms (again, all active all the time). the technomancer showing up on a node might be enough to crash it, nevermind bringing a sprite or anything like that. if you want to limit the agent smith problem, i say just limit the hacker to his own personal resources. if he wants 10 agents, he'd better provide his own commlinks to run those 10 agents off of (rating 6 hosts are going to have some fairly hefty security on them, generally speaking... you shouldn't be able to rely on storing your agents on someone else's hosts anyways, imo, unless it's low rating. and lots of low rating agents causes more problems than it solves). [edit] also, it's a bit disadvantageous to technomancers in general because we're dealing with someone operating solo. i firmly believe that technomancers, well played, can be as effective *in a group* as a hacker, though of course certain situations will favor one or the other. but without a team, the technomancer is at a major disadvantage, because the technomancer is at it's heart a matrix specialist. just as a street sammy will do better solo compared to an adept, the hacker solo will generally do better than the TM solo. [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Aug 31 2007, 01:44 AM |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:45 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Buster:
The catch is TMs (and more imoprtantly sprites) are not limited by the system of a node. A rating 10 spirte could function fine with full abilities in a system/response 1 node. Likewise a 'TMs' rating are all based on their resonance and not limited by a node. This is their 'advantage' and to offset the huge disadvantage of insane karma costs to get all the programs needed instead of relatively little nuyen. A TM (and a sprite) do not 'run in the node' like a computer program. They are more like some outside influence that can manilpulate the parameters. A node system and/or resposne has NO effect on a TM (or sprite) save for determining the level of opposition they might face. The downside to this: 'Attack' (for example but any program) costs the TM: to rating 6 cost 6 karma. That same 6 karma would get: 30,000 nuyen or: 5 programs at rating 6 (rating * 1,000 nuten). So for the TM to have attack: The hacker gets: Attack, Stealth, Armor, Medic, Analyze Now factor in the TM needs most of these (well medic doesnt help a TM at all).. You can see that a 'hacker' is insanely cheaper then a TM, one of the core advantages though is the TM (and his sprites) are not limited by system/response. An insane Resonance 10 TM (4+ levels of submerision) could be running full rating 20 (with threading can go to twice resonance) programs to walk over almost any standard system. (although the karma cost to be able to get here would be insane (rating 10 complex form alone would be: (presuming maxed 6 at creation) 7+8+9+10= 24 karma (not counting the cost of sumberising and raising resonance to 10 so they could have a complex form at 10). System response / degredation has nothing to do with TMs save helping them if their opponent gets weaker (do to degredation) ... if you start applying those penalties to them, you serious weaken the TM. |
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Aug 31 2007, 01:57 AM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
You're agent fix doesn't also fix the 'I buy half a dozen commlinks running agents with medic and heal myself to become the invincible NINJA OF CYBERCOMBAT!"
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Aug 31 2007, 03:10 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I thought everyone was familiar with the Agent Smith Army loophole. There are already several threads about it, but I'll create another thread explaining it.
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Aug 31 2007, 03:18 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Everyone knows it.. I was just point out that your fix doesn't stop this I buy 10 crappy commlinks with agents. Each agent has medic and nothing else I log on to *each commlink* with my persona at the same time. I instruct all agents to to heal me. I go do something else while being healed by 10 agents constantly because my persona is shared across all nodes it is present in. Which is an 'agent smith' problem that doesn't require multiple agents in the same node. So your fix doesn't address it. |
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Aug 31 2007, 03:45 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
How can a persona be "shared" across several nodes and be present in all of them at the same time? I thought a persona could only be in one node at a time. Do you have a page number that explains this?
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Aug 31 2007, 03:50 AM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I'll post at the same time, but the rules specifically state that you can be logged in two places at once, but only act in one. But you can be attacked/otherwise acted on in both. I'm currently cyberslacking in my lunchbreak instead of writing this report so you'll have to wait until I get home for a page number. Edit: someone else can probably look it up for you though. My suggested fix is just say 'agents' are abstracted 'services' you can buy as a hacker - and you can only have one. |
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