Targeting on Astral Options

[ZorbaTHut]

I am confused as to what can be targeted from the Astral plane.

I get that you can't target mundanes from astral. I get that you can target other things on Astral, like mages looking on the Astral plane. I'm pretty sure you can target dual-natured beings, like materializing spirits.

Can you target spells? Can you target people with spells on them?

The fundamental set of issues I have is this. Let's say there are three people walking around in a giant open area in the dead of night - a street sam, a mage, and a civilian. The mage has cast Invisibility on himself and the street sam, at a really high level, so the player can't even come close to seeing either of them. The player has Astral Perception (though he may or may not be using it), Counterspelling, Clout, Powerbolt, Manabolt, and a pistol. I've chosen the three spells because there's one indirect, one direct-mana, and one direct-physical.

As I see it, there are six possible targets. There are two spells, cast by the mage. There's the civilian. There's a street sam, who isn't dual-natured, but has a spell on him. And there's the mage, who may or may not be using astral perception, who is casting two spells and has one on him. (I'm counting the astral-sight possibilities are two different possible targets.)

If the player isn't using astral sight, can he target anything besides the civilian? He shouldn't be able to see the others, since they're both really invisible.

If the player is using astral sight, what can he target? I assume he can Counterspell both spells, and if the mage is using Astral Perception he can hit the mage with spells. I'm not sure which spells he's allowed to use - are there limits? In previous versions of Shadowrun you were able to channel spells "through" other spells, and thus attack the street sam or mage with impunity - is that still the case? Even if it isn't the case, the mage is the source of the spells - can the player target the mage through the spell he's casting? Can the mage use his pistol to try shooting the street sam or mage, who are both glowing like fireworks on the astral plane right now? And, finally, the civilian's aura shows up on Astral, but I assume that's not enough to actually target the civilian on Astral?

Sorry for the giant wad of questions, I've had serious trouble figuring out exactly what is targetable while looking on the astral plane - the best I've found seems to indicate that if you're not personally astrally projecting or perceiving, you can't ever be affected by astral denizens, and that seems really dubious.

[Da9iel]

This is my understanding of the rules.

If the player has not resisted the invisibility spell, yes, he can target no one but the civilian without using astral perception. If the player is using astral perception, he may target any of the three with any spell. He has become dual natured. He can see/sense them with his astral perception, but he is also still in the physical plane and can cast physical spells. He may also use the pistol with the -2 for astral perception. He could dispell the invisibility (without penalty).

If the player was using astral projection, he could not do a thing to the street sam nor the civilian. Spells are not dual natured in SR4. He could of course manabolt the mage if the mage was projecting or perceiving.

[edit]SR1 and SR2 allowed for grounding a physical area effect spell from the astral to the physical plane through spell locks, foci, and other dual natured items/characters. This is gone. There was relief. There was mourning. Few have resurrected it with house rules.

[DTFarstar]

Da9iel is right, you can target any viable spell target you see while astrally perceiving. Which for manabolt means something alive, powerbolt means something with a physical aspect and clout physical aspect you can touch. You can Counterspell any spell you see ever, or try at least. It's when you are projecting that you are limited to mana based spells and astral based or dual natured targets.


Chris

[ZorbaTHut]

Okay. I was confusing Astral Projection and Astral Perception. That makes a lot more sense now.

I guess I'll throw one further question out, in a slightly different vein: let's say there's some street sam running at you, with a mage standing behind him clearly furiously concentrating on something. You assume the street sam is being magically buffed in some way. What can you do? Can you just counterspell "the street sam" and hit a random spell or can you counterspell "the mage" and hit a random spell? I assume you can't tell what spells are on the street sam without astrally perceiving, but if you are astrally perceiving, can you just look and say "oh hey he's got Enhance Reflexes, Enhance Strength, and Enhance Ability To Not Fall Over, I think I'll counterspell the first one"? Or do you need to make some kind of assensing roll? (I can't find the result on the assensing table.)

And alternatively, can the mage look at him without astral, think "well, I think he's moving pretty damn fast, I think I'll counterspell Enhance Reflexes even though I'm not 100% sure he's got it" and do it?

[cx2]

I would imagine being able to tell what spells are on would be dependant on how well they did on an assensing test. More hits means they get more info, starting from "a spell" along to a "health spell" and then on to the spell name. At least that's how I think of it.

[Da9iel]

Yes, dispelling sustained spells requires astral perception. If you get enough hits on your assensing test, you can tell what each spell is. If you only get enough hits to see that there are some spells, you can pick one at random and dispel it. I imagine anything the enemy is sustaining is usually worth dispelling. Or just shoot the mage.


This post has been edited by Da9iel: Aug 31 2007, 09:35 AM

[ZorbaTHut]