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Buster
post Aug 31 2007, 04:19 AM
Post #1


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This is the Agent Smith Army problem:

A hacker can write his own agents and programs with a few months downtime. He now has the source code and can create unlimited copies for free with no effort. At chargen, a hacker can buy 25 top of the line commlinks with top of the line OSs. If the criminal doesn't want to pay for the commlink, he can rob a whole store full of them. If he doesn't want to rob a store, he can do what hackers do today and hijack thousands of nodes throughout the matrix and install an agent on each of those. (It's called turning computers into zombies).

A hacker can only control system * 2 agents at the same time, but he can pre-program them with their instructions before stashing them. The hacker now has thousands of agents running all over the world ready to attack anyone he's programmed them to. Since they are each running on their own node with a decent system rating, none of them suffer degradation even if all one million of them attack one node.

Since defenders can do a similar strategy with their IC, Shadowrun goes from street level to Lord of the Rings level with armies of thousands of agents clashing in commlinks.

Solution: Agents always degrade whatever node they are on, they do not have a source node, and their icons do not project outside their source node.
Explanation: If you say that agents can not project their icons across the matrix as a hacker can project his persona and say that an agent always runs on the node their icon is in, then agents and IC cause degradation on whatever node they are in or are attempted to gain access to. An army is therefore self limiting because after a few agents with a few programs, they have their Response reduced so bad they can't even move.

Clarification: a hacker's persona still originates on his commlink and his persona never suffers degradation when on a low-system node or the presence of an Agent Smith Army on a node. His persona is only degraded by programs running on his originating source commlink. The hacker can dance through a node that has several high-program ICs bogged down by their own weight.

Question: Should a technomancer's sprite's complex forms also suffer this degradation? Do they get an unfair advantage over hackers if they don't? Is it ok that TMs have an unfair advantage over hackers in node hacking given a TM's other shortcomings?

Does this solution fix the Agent Smith Army problem? Does it cause other problems?
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Posts in this topic
- Buster   Agent Smith Army problem   Aug 31 2007, 04:19 AM
- - kzt   How many agents does it take to do an effectively ...   Aug 31 2007, 04:26 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   I think you are over complexifying the both the pr...   Aug 31 2007, 04:27 AM
- - Buster   Solution #2: You could say that (for some reason)...   Aug 31 2007, 04:38 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (Buster) Solution #2: You could say that (f...   Aug 31 2007, 04:45 AM
- - Buster   We definitely need to say that you can only be jac...   Aug 31 2007, 05:04 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (Buster) We definitely need to say that you ...   Aug 31 2007, 05:14 AM
- - Buster   Falling asleep just now just gave me a great idea....   Aug 31 2007, 05:16 AM
- - imperialus   Or the player and GM come to a tacit understanding...   Aug 31 2007, 05:34 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (imperialus) Or the player and GM come to a ...   Aug 31 2007, 05:40 AM
- - hyzmarca   The implicit assumption here is that armies of age...   Aug 31 2007, 06:08 AM
- - Jaid   alternately, you could rule that agents actually r...   Aug 31 2007, 07:37 AM
- - Blade   Actually the Matrix is abstract enough right now t...   Aug 31 2007, 08:25 AM
- - Blade   Oops, double post.   Aug 31 2007, 08:26 AM
- - Sma   Your proposed solution of having agents deteriorat...   Aug 31 2007, 08:39 AM
- - cx2   Alternative idea for multiple agents trying to hac...   Aug 31 2007, 09:03 AM
- - Da9iel   I suggested this in another thread, but it seems t...   Aug 31 2007, 10:06 AM
- - Ryu   Likely not - people are searching for a hardcoded ...   Aug 31 2007, 10:51 AM
- - Eleazar   Or, you could just have agents work exactly the wa...   Aug 31 2007, 11:53 AM
- - Buster   I never liked the idea of the GM just saying ...   Aug 31 2007, 12:39 PM
- - Prime Mover   IC Operates on the Node it's in as per RAW so ...   Aug 31 2007, 12:56 PM
- - Moon-Hawk   I go with the explanation: You can't have mult...   Aug 31 2007, 02:24 PM
- - Prime Mover   Like idea of not allowing more then one "copy...   Aug 31 2007, 02:34 PM
- - cx2   I don't think having security hackers chase a ...   Aug 31 2007, 03:44 PM
- - kzt   QUOTE (Buster)You'd have to bring the price up...   Aug 31 2007, 04:31 PM
- - DataStream   This solution doesn't do much for the IC army ...   Aug 31 2007, 04:44 PM
- - laughingowl   QUOTE (Prime Mover) IC Operates on the Node it...   Sep 1 2007, 01:14 AM
- - Cthulhudreams   QUOTE (cx2 @ Aug 31 2007, 10:44 AM) I don...   Sep 1 2007, 04:36 AM
- - hobgoblin   did anyone poke a look at mye quick corp host writ...   Sep 1 2007, 04:43 AM
- - Kremlin KOA   thr true irony of this is that the agent smith ...   Jan 7 2008, 05:40 PM
- - Riley37   There's the Matrix in the sense of the large n...   Jan 7 2008, 11:46 PM
- - Cthulhudreams   I've just been making a higher powered charact...   Jan 7 2008, 11:59 PM
- - Hank   There's always the simplest solution: no agen...   Jan 12 2008, 01:23 AM
- - FrankTrollman   The Hackastack is a problem related to but distinc...   Jan 12 2008, 02:32 AM
- - Feshy   I don't recall any text that says that a matri...   Jan 12 2008, 03:10 AM
- - kzt   10 agents attacking a node is identical to having ...   Jan 12 2008, 06:54 AM
- - Ryu   That is the very problem - the agent is not really...   Jan 12 2008, 10:38 AM
- - Blade   If anyone's interested, I've got some hous...   Jan 12 2008, 12:56 PM
- - FrankTrollman   Blade, your system doesn't fix Agent Smith at ...   Jan 12 2008, 01:07 PM
- - Blade   Thanks for your opinion Frank. But next time pleas...   Jan 12 2008, 01:13 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Blade) Thanks for your opinion Frank. But n...   Jan 12 2008, 01:21 PM
- - Blade   I'm impressed by your inability to divert a bi...   Jan 12 2008, 01:55 PM
- - Stahlseele   QUOTE There are no rules in SR4 for getting a nuke...   Jan 12 2008, 01:59 PM
- - FrankTrollman   The nature of the hackastack problem is such that ...   Jan 12 2008, 02:24 PM
- - Blade   Actually this is also covered, but if you won...   Jan 12 2008, 02:29 PM
- - FrankTrollman   Forcing people to purchase fake sins for extra com...   Jan 12 2008, 02:44 PM
- - bjorn   QUOTE (FrankTrollman)And despite weasel words like...   Jan 12 2008, 03:04 PM
- - Blade   Ok, if insist: 1. Independant agents are just li...   Jan 12 2008, 03:09 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE I don't explain what they are, because i...   Jan 12 2008, 03:40 PM
- - Blade   QUOTE (FrankTrollman) That's the core problem ...   Jan 12 2008, 04:09 PM
- - Ravor   Well, I won't pretend to have put as much thou...   Jan 12 2008, 04:41 PM
- - Blade   Most of these are in my system. Still, your solu...   Jan 12 2008, 05:05 PM
- - Ravor   I wouldn't allow an Agent to use a commlink li...   Jan 12 2008, 05:19 PM
- - Blade   Exactly. That's more or less the way it works ...   Jan 12 2008, 05:57 PM
- - Ravor   Ok, you win, I'll actually read your system an...   Jan 12 2008, 06:01 PM
- - Ravor   *shakes head* Umm, sorry Blade, but I disagree th...   Jan 12 2008, 07:44 PM
- - Blade   Well, I've never said that your "bandage...   Jan 12 2008, 10:24 PM
- - Alex   Wow! An amazing amount of warm, yellow liquid...   Jan 12 2008, 11:33 PM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (Ravor) As for hack-a-stack, a guess I never...   Jan 13 2008, 12:22 AM
- - Nightwalker450   Ok, this Matrix causes large disputes... I've...   Jan 13 2008, 02:08 AM
- - Nightwalker450   Ugh, hackastack... More reading to try and theoriz...   Jan 13 2008, 02:25 AM
- - Ravor   QUOTE (Blade)I don't see what you're refer...   Jan 13 2008, 02:48 AM
- - hyzmarca   QUOTE (Nightwalker450) Ok, this Matrix causes larg...   Jan 13 2008, 03:01 AM
- - Nightwalker450   QUOTE ("hyzmarca")Actually, with a prope...   Jan 13 2008, 04:03 AM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE I'm not sure if I'm interpreting thi...   Jan 13 2008, 10:34 AM
- - Blade   QUOTE (Ravor) Unless I'm completely misunderst...   Jan 13 2008, 11:17 AM
- - Ravor   Two things come to mind, one, in the meat world yo...   Jan 13 2008, 04:51 PM
- - Feshy   QUOTE (kzt)10 agents attacking a node is identical...   Jan 13 2008, 06:27 PM
- - kzt   Even if you do have to buy them, agents are not th...   Jan 13 2008, 07:30 PM
- - Cheops   QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Jan 13 2008, 02:08 AM...   Jan 14 2008, 08:48 PM
- - kzt   The counterpoint is the guy setting off the burgla...   Jan 14 2008, 11:00 PM
- - Cheops   To counter your argument how hard is it really for...   Jan 15 2008, 05:11 AM
- - Dashifen   QUOTE (Cheops) To counter your argument how hard i...   Jan 15 2008, 02:34 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Ravor) Well, I won't pretend to have pu...   Jan 15 2008, 03:59 PM
- - Ryu   Network seggregation of critical systems can not b...   Jan 15 2008, 04:35 PM
- - Blade   QUOTE AR is without a direct neural interface. Wr...   Jan 15 2008, 04:46 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE Network seggregation of critical systems can...   Jan 15 2008, 05:08 PM
- - Ryu   But network segregation can happen for wireless sy...   Jan 15 2008, 07:33 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Ryu) But network segregation can happen for...   Jan 15 2008, 10:11 PM
- - Moon-Hawk   QUOTE (FrankTrollman) For the game dynamic we...   Jan 15 2008, 10:19 PM
- - FrankTrollman   QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan ...   Jan 15 2008, 10:25 PM
- - Ryu   QUOTE (FrankTrollman) QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 15 200...   Jan 15 2008, 10:38 PM
- - Blade   Let me get this straight: Network A is a wired n...   Jan 15 2008, 10:41 PM
- - Ryu   The way he says, they break and enter to splice in...   Jan 15 2008, 10:53 PM
- - Blade   But how can they splice in a sattelite dish? They...   Jan 15 2008, 11:17 PM
- - Crusher Bob   Splicing in a sat dish is simpler because you don...   Jan 16 2008, 02:19 AM
- - Lyonheart   QUOTE (Buster) This is the Agent Smith Army proble...   Jan 16 2008, 02:52 AM
- - Crusher Bob   The headlines for that response write themselves: ...   Jan 16 2008, 03:16 AM
- - kzt   QUOTE (Blade @ Jan 15 2008, 04:17 PM) They ca...   Jan 16 2008, 05:41 AM
- - Ryu   Interesting, keep it up! It is right that not...   Jan 16 2008, 11:11 AM
- - Lyonheart   QUOTE (Crusher Bob) The headlines for that respons...   Jan 17 2008, 03:09 AM
- - kzt   Followed by "road construction" blocks t...   Jan 17 2008, 03:25 AM
- - Ryu   One can see how that will end in an SR-like enviro...   Jan 17 2008, 03:49 PM


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