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 The hardest thing about SR4 is...., general gripe |
 Sep 4 2007, 12:34 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091  |
I dont agree. They just made the rules more streamlined. Elementals are not uber powerful and doesnt take horrible effort to get one. The difficulty is now equal and so it the power level.
we had this in SR2/SR3 but it was just a little uglier.
Not everything is. BY default it is but people can still hardwire stuff.
there will always be min/maxing. even on the dreaded D20 DnD has min/maxing. min/maxing is what players do with their characters. Some players try to minimize their min/maxing but it is hard to make a kick butt character when you dont.
I bet most of them will be back with the new rules. some wont. if you have to have the stuff from SR3, play SR3.
no! no! no! it is an ACTIVE skill. It is something you have to do.
yeah everyone only has 1 IP unless they get cyberware/bioware/magic to give them additional. So faster init is not the only factor. The number of passed is another factor. It makes it more well balanced. Now we can sit down and "debate" the good points and bad points of any game system or any edition of a game system, and we can find things that we dont like. Some of the points you made you made them to be out as a bad thing where I see them as a good things. Just differences of opinions. I have played all the editions. Have most of 1st, all of 2nd and 3rd, and I *personally* think that 4th is the better version. I had to play it a little while before I came to that conclusions. dog |
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Sep 4 2007, 12:38 AM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Or you could make a game with no bad choices at character creation! ;) That pretty much eliminates min maxing :P |
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Sep 4 2007, 12:39 AM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No, it is a Physical Skill (as in the category). You can even get a Reflex Recorder for it. |
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Sep 4 2007, 06:33 AM
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#29
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...your points are well put and echo responses to the same concern I had expressed in past threads relating to this very topic. I have since adopted a lot of these suggestions. At the time this was getting out of hand it revolved around a single player who had abused the magic and adept system to the Nth degree. The character in question was a control/social mystic adept who used a Spirit of Man to boost her already obscene Charisma. It was either escalate the conflict (which didn't work) or throw up the hands and give her the top price just to keep things moving along for the other players. The thing is this same player also was in my old SRIII campaign with a similar type of character and never was able to pull off the level of stuff she did in 4th ed. One of the downsides of your last suggestion is that the team doesn't accept the offer and walks. Basically the game session is over and everyone just wasted their time getting all their stuff ready and travelling to the location where the game was held. This was a distinct possibility I faced and personally I was not into doing all the prep work and drag myself halfway across town only to pack everything up after 15 minutes and go home. So it usually came down to cave into (and feed the ego of) the one player so the other players had a mission to go on, or have the Johnson stick to his offer & pack everything in when the team's spokesperson declines the offer. Yes this was a player issue, but one that I feel was precipitated by the way the mechanics were set up. Suffice to say, this particular situation has since been resolved. |
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Sep 4 2007, 06:59 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
See, I don't get this. I've had my groups turn down jobs all the time, and it doesn't ever spell the end of the gaming session. All it means is that I have to do some stuff on the fly, or better yet, have the players (and their characters) set the direction of the game. Even if worst comes to worst and I can't think of anything, some kind of social situation and/or shopping trip would work. Anything but end the session prematurely. |
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Sep 4 2007, 07:06 AM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
We've turned down only a very few across a series of campaigns. The only one I can think was one where it just didn't smell right, in the Tir. I can't remember if we didn't take it at the meet or if we returned the money and walked away. We were later told it was to be a hosejob, so we were glad. And there is the after the failed meet scene when everyone is sitting around talking when "Come out with your hands up, we have you surrounded" comes over the PA system. . . |
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Sep 4 2007, 07:08 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. When I gmed, my players also declined some offers - some where only there to BE declined, but even if they declined a "good" job (meaning: One I had prepared) I would have never thought of going home at this point. Normaly I then used one of my backup jobs or improvised... |
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Sep 4 2007, 07:33 AM
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#33
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Look at it from a game mechanic point of view. The roll ensures that the Johnson sucks it up and takes the fall. All the negative aspects of the result of the roll should already be factored into the roll itself. If the negotiator wins despite the negative modifiers these negative repercussions would produce, then the Johnson sucks it up. It is not the pretty elf boy won't work within the budget, it is the pretty elf boy convinced you that the budget is too small and it is unworkable. Since you have been convinced, you get the short end of the stick to work it so that the pretty elf boy gets his nuyen and you get your job done. If "you" don't want to walk over the trap again and again, then I suggest "you" take a dive off the tallest building because "you" obviously cannot take the stress. Secondly, because it was "you" who lost the roll, the streets(fixers, other Johnsons, etc) is going to take the point of view that it is either your corp is cheapskate or "you" are, any ill effects would be such that "you" are left holding the bag, not the runners. So win that roll. |
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Sep 4 2007, 07:45 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Personally, I wouldn't allow that a simple roll makes the target brainless :-) Even if the Johnson succeds very well, the Runners will NOT work for free... So, I would rule that there are limits: A very good negotiation result will make the Johnson go to his limit - but he will not use more than his budget is, simply because he is not allowed to do so. At the very best, he will call his boss and ask.
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Sep 4 2007, 08:22 AM
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#35
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I don't suppose you allow people to get dead with 1 or 2 simple rolls either? |
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Sep 4 2007, 08:29 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Please, show me the table where the threshold for "Convincing the Johnson to give you his suit" is shown. :-)
Sorry, but it's clear that combat kills. Look at the wars, it really happens. But social skills are no magic. There simply are limits - unless you use a spell. How often does it happen, that professional negotiators (Glithces excluded) pay more money than they have? Or do you allow to negotiate "Please, commit suicide!"? If the Johnson looses, he takes the suicide pill? :-) But let's make it short: Please, show me the page in the rule books where the threshold for such actions is given. As long as you can't do that, common sense must suffice. |
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Sep 4 2007, 08:57 AM
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#37
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I'll do that as soon as you show me where RAW states that there is a limit. Common sense tells me that if the rules do not state a limit, there isn't one. As long as you cannot do that, common sense simply cannot suffice.
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Sep 4 2007, 09:03 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
So you really think, there is no limit? That's fine for you, then have fun playing in a group where it's possible to negotiate the Johnson into stripping and making out with the troll bouncer before commiting suicide.
Sorry, of course there ARE limits. That's not even common sense, that's simply reality. We can argue about where the limits are, ok, but not about IF there are limits. Same thing as with guns: There are limits you don't need to mention. You can vaporize someone with a (normal) heavy pistol, no matter if you got 1 or 10.000 hits. You can kill one for good, sure, but even with 10.000 hits you can't hit the Zürich Orbital with a Hold-out. Limits. Simple. You can argue where the limits are, but normaly you can always define something, that's clearly outside the limits. |
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Sep 4 2007, 09:11 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Not if the only part of the body that could have been hit is a finger. Some spells or adepts power can lead to negociation magic with very powerful results ("yes sir, I will now kill myself"). Some very good persuasion techniques can lead to interesting results but might require more time and need to have some consistency. An example comes to my mind: the runner is caught naked and heavily wounded, his arm tied behind his back by a security guard who happens to be the brother of another guard he just killed. He wants the guard to free him and give him his weapon. With manipulation spells and some adept powers (such as commanding voice), it's possible to get him to do it. Without that, it seems impossible... But it is. A really convincing runner (with pheromones, kinesics, high charisma, etc.) can for example tell the guard that the rest of his team is arriving and that the guard can get away with his wounded brother, saving both their lives. It won't be easy to convince the guard, but the negative modifiers and the threshold should reflect that. If the runner succeeds, the guard will be convinced... or at least he'll check if the runner said the truth. But in that situation, I don't see how the runner could be able to convince the guard (we'll suppose the guard is sane) to kill himself without any mind control. That's what I'd compare to killing someone by shooting one finger. A strict application of the rule will consider it possible, but that's another reason why we have GM instead of computers (or zombies). |
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Sep 4 2007, 09:15 AM
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#40
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Why the hell can't you hit Zurich Orbital with a Hold Out with 10000 hits? The limits are clearly stated in the book. The limits, if there are, are already clearly stated. No, that isn't reality. That's reality in real life. But reality in SR is defined by its rules. And there's no limit. You keep thinking real life when you should be thinking Shadowrun when talking about Shadowrun rules. |
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Sep 4 2007, 09:25 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
You're wrong. As long the shadowrun rules do not cover the game reality 100% (and they never will, because they never can), there will always be things that aren't possible, even if there's no rule forbidding it. Rules are almost never complete and never ever perfect. That's why we have GMs. Or are GMs.
But that's fine, simply play the way you want and let's agree on disagreeing. |
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Sep 4 2007, 09:29 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
Ok those lines scare me. Uh the rules can't and don't define every last thing. Otherwise you'd have rule books that are multi volume encylopedias. A little common sense goes a long way. Why not start flying around and walking through walls? The book doesn't say you can't. |
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Sep 4 2007, 09:35 AM
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#43
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
levitate spell, ghosts, spirits and projecting mages?
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Sep 4 2007, 10:06 AM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 7-August 07 Member No.: 12,548 |
Well if you're going By The Book then you wouldn't be able to hit Zurich Orbital with a hold out pistol even with a billion squillion (that's a number, really!) hits - it's outside the 50m extreme range of a hold out pistol (assuming you were firing from sea level).
Taking the rules to be absolutely ironclad is not a sensible approach in my mind, there are simply things that the rules system cannot either account for or was never thought about in the first place. Limitations should be there, in game, combined with common sense, or else i get to spend three days chipping away at skyscrapers foundations with a toothpick to destroy one corp facility on the third floor - unrealistic and just plain stoopid. |
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Sep 4 2007, 10:07 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
You know I was seriously waiting for that. Gee I never considered that sparky, I play a mage every damn week. I'm not in the mood so i'll let it slide, you know what I meant. |
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Sep 4 2007, 10:12 AM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Consider the sharp con man (9 dice) vs the yokel, defaulting from Cha 2, so rolling 1 die. Can the con man convince the yokel to trade his cow for magic beans? If we bump the con man to 10 dice (so he's quite good) that gives him a 9 dice advantage over the yokel. Now here's the problem, if we compare the con man to the pronomancer (with 24 dice), the pornomancer has more of advantage over the con man than the con man had over the yokel.
So you want the con man to be able to bilk the yokel out of his cow, the pornormancer should be able to bilk the con man just as easily. |
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Sep 4 2007, 10:12 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 7-August 07 Member No.: 12,548 |
But no where in the rules does it expressively not permit a mundane character from walking through walls or flying around without the use of magic - so why bother with spells and spirits?
No - it's common sense that joe mundane can't walk through walls or fly - we take that for granted as much as we do breathing. So why can't that common sense be used elsewhere with the rules as well? |
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Sep 4 2007, 10:47 AM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I don't get people who don't think that 'talking to people' should have real rational limits.
If the johnson is going to get *Shot in the face* if he engages in action XYZ he.. isn;t going to do it. Or do you think that the elf can persuade security guards to commit suicide by walking up and saying "you know, it would be a really awesome idea if you just killed yourself now" Crazy cults aside (that incidentally take months/years of conditioning and isolation when it works in real life!) that sort of shit just doesn't happen. But hey if you want to go into rules discussions in that the rule doesn't provide any limits - it also doesn't say what happens when you suceed with that negotiation check either. So whats going to happen is the Johnson is going to see the elfs perspective, settle for an average performance review instead of a great one and up the ante by 1:nuyen: ;) And then blacklist them as 'not suckers' |
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Sep 4 2007, 11:13 AM
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#49
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Because there are rules for magic to walk through walls and fly around, then you could assume that the joe mundane cannot do such without. An induction if you will, no common sense required. |
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Sep 4 2007, 11:15 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Sorry, but "If A, then B" doesn't allow you to conclude "If not A, then not B".
"If you're a mage, you can do it" does NOT say "If you're not a mage, you can't do it." |
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