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> Technomancer DNA?, Can they be identified after death?
Begby
post Sep 3 2007, 09:53 PM
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Is it canon that Technomancers have a distinct DNA or physical structure to identify them post-mortem?
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Ancient History
post Sep 3 2007, 10:24 PM
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Physical structures, yes, DNA, no. Leastways, not yet.
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the_dunner
post Sep 4 2007, 01:13 AM
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DNA Structure -- maybe. Just because it hasn't been identified, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. ;)
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mmu1
post Sep 4 2007, 01:22 AM
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If there are distinct physical structures, there has to be specific DNA. Unless those structures are completely artificial and being maintained by some outside agency, you'll need cell division to keep them from dying, which means you need DNA.
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Method
post Sep 4 2007, 02:07 AM
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Are you talking about "physical structures" in the brain as in anatomical differences?

And technically, no; TMs wouldn't need different DNA necessarily. They could have the same genes as everyone else but an unusual pattern of expression. There could also be anatomical differences due to hyperplasia of certain structures in the brain due to the unusual cognitive abilities TMs use, and the difference in stimuli from the Deep Res.

Edited for clarity.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 4 2007, 03:28 AM
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Since people spontaneously became technomancers during the Crash, we can safely say that it has an environmental cause.
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nathanross
post Sep 4 2007, 05:04 AM
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The issue with TMs is Magic. Much like the magus-gene, which has yet to be identified, the gene that allows virtuakinetic powers has yet to be identified, much less understood, and it is probably best not to worry about it.
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Begby
post Sep 6 2007, 05:58 AM
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The real question is, when an autopsy has been performed on a cadaver believed to be a Technomancer, is it canon that they can be tested some way to determine that they in fact had these abilities while alive.

The scenario is unfolding, here's the facts we have: Technomancer gets publicly lynched in Seattle Metroplex by unorganized vigilantes. Lone Star retrieves the body, tests were made, they came to a finding that he was indeed a Technomancer. A second unknown source hacks data bases and destroys these findings. Technomancer's body is lost in transit to storage by Lone Star, coverup ensues.

The story could go a few ways here.

A: Body is hijacked for use by corp for research.
B: Body dosen't matter, Technomancers have no physical difference to mundane humanss.
C: Technomancer was never a Technomancer to begin with, Lone Star couldn't prove it in testing, so they had to coverup. An innocent man has been killed.
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fistandantilus4....
post Sep 6 2007, 06:09 AM
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Moved to appropriate Forum
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Zhan Shi
post Sep 6 2007, 06:37 AM
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There is an interesting parallel between TMs and mages. Resonance Realms/Metaplanes, Sprites/Spirits, the loss of Resonance/Essence due to cyberware. Instead of "Ghosts in the Machine", we have "Magicians in the Machine". In Emergence, there was some talk about how to kill AIs...by isolating their code in the Matrix (shades of traveling to a home metaplane to destroy a spirit). And of course there is the Dissonance....maybe a "Toxic" Resonance? Makes me wonder.
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Adarael
post Sep 6 2007, 07:07 AM
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Devs and authors have repeatedly stated that TMs are not magical. And despite the questions this raises, I for one agree with it. They are not magic. They are like magic.
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Zhan Shi
post Sep 6 2007, 07:28 AM
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Forgot to add Submersion/Initiation, and the Matrix seeming to function as an electronic version of the gaiasphere's mana field. Far be it from me to dispute the developers; that was not my intention, and of course I'll take their word. But it does, as you said, raise questions.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 6 2007, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
In Emergence, there was some talk about how to kill AIs...by isolating their code in the Matrix (shades of traveling to a home metaplane to destroy a spirit).



QUOTE (Adarael)
Devs and authors have repeatedly stated that TMs are not magical. And despite the questions this raises, I for one agree with it. They are not magic. They are like magic.

If the devs and authors told you Shedim were not magical, they are like magic, would you pay any attention whatsoever?

~J
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Synner
post Sep 6 2007, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE (Zhan Shi)

In Emergence, there was some talk about how to kill AIs...by isolating their code in the Matrix (shades of traveling to a home metaplane to destroy a spirit).

Actually, what happens in Emergence is that an AI's core program kernel is corralled by a group of hackers into an isolated Matrix node to be trapped or destroyed. For the record this was how Maegera/Morgan was recaptured by Renraku back in the day...

Regarding TM origin:
One theory, expressed in Emergence, is that technomancers are the polar opposite to magicians, an alternative expression of the same genetic potential. This places them at the opposite end of the spectrum of Awakened ability (as it were) and explains some of the parralels and similarities.

Or the "Darwin's Radio" theory that evolution is reactive and calls on a dormant "library" of DNA responses to new environmental factors when these reach a certain critical mass and triggers rapid mutation - which makes technomancers genetic mutants better adapted to the 2070 environment.

Note there are other scientific (rather than mystical) theories on technomancer expression that do not include DNA, such as hypnotic psychosomatic conditioning inducing physiological changes (without DNA tweaking) via the Matrix.

Regarding TMs being magical:
What we do know is that technomancers do not possess Magical potential, they do not have magical auras as magicians and adepts would, their bodies and minds are unable to tap mana as a magician or adept, they are unable to conjure or command spirits. Magicians (or adepts) assensing a technomancer do not recognize them as magical. In fact, for all the (mechanical) parallels in their abilities, they have no traits that are recognizable as Awakened. As I have said before, technomancers are not "magical" in any recognizable understanding of the term in the Sixth World.

If they are magical, the prevailing theories on the nature of magic in the Sixth World are either seriously incomplete or plain wrong.
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NightmareX
post Sep 6 2007, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE (Adarael)
Devs and authors have repeatedly stated that TMs are not magical. And despite the questions this raises, I for one agree with it. They are not magic. They are like magic.


And I for one am so glad that is the case.
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 6 2007, 04:28 PM
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But we do know for a fact that there is some connection between TMs and magic, simply because the two are mutually exclusive. It could be something as simple as the genes responsible for each occupy the same space, but there is a connection.
Personally, I think I like the polar opposite of magicians theory. It makes them "not magic" but still explains why everything works the exact same way.
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Buster
post Sep 6 2007, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 6 2007, 03:22 AM)
Regarding TM origin:

You know what it could be? Past-life experience intruding on present time.
Could be erased memories stored in the collective unconscious. I wouldn't rule out clairvoyance or telepathic contact, either.

:D

Movie reference, anyone, anyone?
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Ophis
post Sep 6 2007, 05:15 PM
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Who you going to call?
[ Spoiler ]
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Buster
post Sep 6 2007, 05:21 PM
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:D
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Buster
post Sep 6 2007, 05:23 PM
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I'm curious, why the decision to make technomancers non-magical? It seems like with a game universe that has already defined magic, it would be a simple design decision to say that technomancers are just a different flavor of adept. It seems like it would simplify the whole process, minimize confusion, and keep the game distinctly Shadowrun.
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DTFarstar
post Sep 6 2007, 05:25 PM
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Which begs the question.....


Why the hell can mages tell someone is a TM with an assensing test?


Chris
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Adarael
post Sep 6 2007, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE
If the devs and authors told you Shedim were not magical, they are like magic, would you pay any attention whatsoever?


If they lived in the net, sure. But they pointedly game from astral space, visibly, and visibly are magical. TMs are not visibly magical with regards to an assensing test, and their 'magic' brand doesn't ever interact with any of the other magic anywhere in the world. So if there's 100 magicians, and 1 magician does wierd stuff but none of the other 99 understand it, can sense it, can block it, or even know what to call it... I'd say that 1 guy isn't using magic, but is using something 'similar but different.'

And yes, you can tell a TM is a TM from an assensing test. You need 5 hits, though. And even then I'd say you wouldn't know what it was unless you knew what to look for or had the background for having seen TM auras before.
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Synner
post Sep 6 2007, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
I'm curious, why the decision to make technomancers non-magical? It seems like with a game universe that has already defined magic, it would be a simple design decision to say that technomancers are just a different flavor of adept. It seems like it would simplify the whole process, minimize confusion, and keep the game distinctly Shadowrun.

I'm going to answer that by reiterating what I've said before in other terms: technomancers may very well be "magical," but if that is the case, they are magical in a way that is hitherto completely distinct from every other expression of "magic" as it is understood in the Sixth World (and consequently the traditional understanding of magic of everyone who has played under that paradigm).

This might simply mean that the current paradigm of "magic" is incomplete, but what it translates to is that a technomancer is not "magical" in the sense that magicians, adepts, mystic adepts, paranormal critters, deep metaplanar entities or spirits are (note that all those would recognize each other as magical but would not recognize a technomancer as magic). Quite possibly Resonance is what happens when the "primal force" behind magic is shaped by a technological and artificial environment, rather than the elemental forces of nature and the living gaeasphere that creates "magic".
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Hartbaine
post Sep 6 2007, 06:52 PM
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I don't think they're magical. They're evolved. They are the next step to the metahuman body adapting and evolving in a world flooded with pulses of data. They're brains have simply developed a bioelectrical (chemical) way to transform their brainwaves into data. They're walking antennas so to speak able to broadcast their conscious brainwaves (or betawaves if they are completely in VR) into the matrix.

Humanity has done it for eons; we improvise, adapt, and overcome. Our bodies are no exception.

Now would this show up in DNA? I would say yes, the genes required to make the brain perform like it does would have to be mutated in some way. Do any scientists know what it means? No. Can I back any of this theory up? Nope, an I ain't gotta. :P
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Sma
post Sep 6 2007, 08:30 PM
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I think some confusion may stem from the fact that the game term magical is defined and TM's are defined not to be in its purview, while the way they work certainly is magical, as in not based in SR's physics.

But apart from that, what was the reason to make Otaku go away and replace them with a similar archetype, instead of just updating the bad rules they were stuck with ?
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