 What the heck is the Drone Sensor really?, How do they work? A description please |
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 Sep 4 2007, 11:59 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948  |
Drone Sensors – What are they?
I find no clear explanation in the book on how vehicle and drone sensors actually work or a description on how they function without any sensor upgrades like cameras or ultrasound, they see quite well without upgrades apparently even though they cannot SEE anything without a camera, they would just get radar echoes, which means they should at least have a radar. The basic sensor is just explained like that, a sensor. A what? Radar? Well, the most likely explanation would be a radar, but wait – augmentation have a good explanation of a radar: The Radar Sensor cyberware… The closest explanation to a radar that I can find is just that, the radar sensor. If drones have similar ones in rating 1-3 as most of them have then why cant drones and vehicles see through walls? (although I can see the government and corp having something against most people peeking through walls with their Doberman…) Does anyone have another explanation to the sensor system? A millimeter wave radar sounds dandy but I can see some problems with using the Radar Sensor rules due to the X-ray vision thingy. |
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Sep 4 2007, 12:36 PM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
First and foremost, the Sensor Rating provides basic Perception (you can make Perception Tests through Sensors, and so can the Pilot). If one wants to upgrade it with special enhancements, one needs to install a Sensor Package with those.
Additionally, it provides some totally unspecified Signature recognition capability used with Sensor Tests, mainly for Sensor assisted Gunnery... that won't even pick up a pedestrian right in front of your car, because your car has 3 dice for Sensor Tests and loses 3 dice against metahumans. |
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Sep 4 2007, 12:53 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
The first part I already know, that's the basic knowledge but what i clearly miss is a simple and logical explanation of how the sensor rating work in a technical manner. If drone sensor is a future tech based upon radar or some other technique then i would like an explanation of it. It's that "Unspecified Signature Recognition" that really annoys me. I can only hope that they add that in Arsenal and come up with an explanation of how a head mounted radar can have better perception bonuses than vehicle mounted radars and see through walls (and even if some of them have sensors some are BOUND to have a radar, especially flying vehicles even if they are labelled as "Sensor" rating.) For example, what kind of Sensors/Radars would an average aircraft have today? The Cessna C-750 is noted as being used as a surveillance plane - that one should at least have a nose mounted flight radar (not sensor, radar) |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:01 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
I guess that "Sensor" is just a way to use a single rating to represent how good the drone can perceive its surrondings.
If you want to consider it in depth, it'll depend on the drone: a spy drone is very likely to use a standard camera whereas a crawler made for finding bodies in destroyed buildings will use something totally different (I don't know exactly what would be the best) |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:10 PM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, that is the problem, you dont have a camera unless you install it as an extra option. They all just have "Sensor" instead of an explanation of the technical means that they use when they dont have those extra options. I just find it odd that one can have a cyeberware implant that allows a human to see through conrete walls but drones are effectively blind compared to humans, and drones dont even have an option of getting a radar, they all just have a "Sensor" that is even worse than human perception. I get the feeling that the best thing that drones have is a 360 degree range finder to measure distances from objects. nope, cant have a rangefinder, thats a sensor add-on. You see my problem here? :| |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:14 PM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Because this is beyond 'basic Perception': It's an enhancement. Wait until Arsenal for the Radar Sensor Package and install it. |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:16 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Im actually hoping that they would add that for vehicle sensors. And that they give a more in-dept explanation how this mysterious basic sensor works. |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:19 PM
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#8
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As default? :| I don't think PCs getting shot through walls by standard drones makes a great game. |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:36 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
So the camera isn't a "extra option". |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:42 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Hell no. I can see every damn player buying a cheapo drone for 2K and getting a ratign 4 radar sensor that can see through walls. Just hook that up to your HUD and you are ready to shoot people through walls. No, but i would like to see the following: Drones have a radar sensor as standard but weak enough to reflect against objects and a strong enough receiver to have the range they need on their sensors (they cannot see through anything by default). They would have the ability to upgrade it for the same price as the headware version up to their Sensor rating. One would also be able to increase the basic sensor rating witha hardware upgrade very much like a commlink upgrade. This would give birth to the rating 8 radar sensor that can see through meter thick titanium walls and fries the brain on anyone within 100 meters... :grinbig: |
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Sep 4 2007, 01:47 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Not sure what they are smoking when they write the FAQ at times but then i would like an explanation to all those costs for Sensor enhacements that clearly have a listed cost in SR4, nor do the drone or vehicle list specify what enhacements a player can choose for free on his/her drones or vehicles. A base drone has no sensor equipment except its "sensor" all those add-ons like cameras must be bought as extras as they are not part of the basic drone package. Each sensor enhancement takes up part of the drones sensor package capacity however. Every enhancement to sensors has a listed cost and no drone have any of them as standard as per SR4 core rule book. |
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Sep 4 2007, 02:20 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
The way I see it what you call the "Sensor" is the camera or whatever the drone uses to perceive its surrondings.
Additional sensors can be bought for specific uses. For example a spy drone will have a camera (or a radar) to be able to move around. But if you want to use it to spy on conversations, you'll need to add a microphone, bought separately. |
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Sep 4 2007, 02:26 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
So, your interpretation of the FAQ is that you get to choose 1 sensor option without cost that is the basic sensor system and all the other cost money. Sounds wrong as most players would then pick the most effective and expensive “main� sensor to save money. The problem is that the sensor suite is emty, you CAN add something to improve things like a camera or ultrasound vision but you can also use the basic “sensor� (whatever that IS…) Besides, nothing in Shadowrun have ever been a freebie and always cost money. |
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Sep 4 2007, 02:46 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Actually, the main sensor has two restrictions :
1) It is limited by the sensor attribute : a drone with a low sensor attribute can't have a high-res camera. 2) The drone will rely on it to move around and act. So a drone with a chemical sniffer might look like a great deal, but it won't be able to move around without bumping on walls. A crawler drone using a low-light/thermographic camera won't be very efficient in total darkness and it'd rather use some kind of radar but in that case it won't be able to lock on someone very easily. |
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Sep 4 2007, 03:06 PM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Is this a houserule or can you give a specific page number describing this. I can have a sensor rating of 1 but a weapon mount that has a device rating of 3 with a smartlink attached. The smartlink has a built in camera that can have additional mods. Even though the sensor then would have a low res camera the smartlink camera would be far better. |
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Sep 4 2007, 03:32 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
It's an interpretation of what the FAQ says:
"You can use the capacity for the vehicle's sensor package to determine what kind of sensor gear it has." means that the basic sensors are limited by the drone's sensor capacity to begin with. I take the "each of them has a Sensor attribute. If you want to determine what specific sensors a drone has [...]" as a way of saying that the sensor attribute is just an easy way to give a rating of the specific sensors. If that's the case, then it means (using common sense) that a drone with a low sensor rating has bad sensors. Hence, point 1. Point 2 is just common sense. These base sensors give the sensor attribute, i.e the way the drone perceives the world. So, for example, a drone with just a microphone as base sensor won't be able to navigate in a place without sound. This applies to all kind of sensors a drone could use. It's not exactly what's written, but that's the most logical interpretation I've found. |
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Sep 4 2007, 06:28 PM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
By RAW sensors can be upgrade to 6+ levels.
By your reading of the FAQ does that mean I can install more sensors in that vehicle? WMS |
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Sep 4 2007, 06:37 PM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
uh... where? How? |
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Sep 4 2007, 07:42 PM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Using the hardware upgrade costs on page 240, using the signal upgrade column.
This information was related to me by Redjack, I do not recall where he found it. I asked him some questions regarding vehicles, the stats for same and upgrade paths for same. WMS |
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Sep 4 2007, 07:55 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Rigger 3 explained what items were in the old systems' sensors. Which included:
Camera (Lowlight and thermo at higher sensor ratings) Radar (at ratings 2+) Audio Proximity Sensor Rangefinder (at ratings 3+) So, seeing as it wasn't defined in this version, I've been going on the assumption that this was basically what was included. |
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Sep 4 2007, 09:29 PM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Maybe Redjack could give us a page reference or quote to the effect that it is possible by canon to use the Commlink Upgrade table to upgrade sensors. |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:02 AM
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#22
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Let me start with a correction. The table does not say Commlink Upgrade, it says Hardware Upgrade Costs (BBB pg240). Now, as the operating system is differentiated between coms and drones as system and pilot, respectively (BBB pg213, pg228). Since you cannot run a pilot rating higher than the response (BBB pg213), you must be able to upgrade the response of the drone to run the higher pilot rating.
Finally, I directly asked Rob the following question in a serious of questions about drones last year.
Hope that helps. |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:06 AM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I have no problem with any of that. Pretty much anything can have its Device Rating (and related attributes upgraded). I still don't see how that applies to Sensors though.
Note that I am not saying that sensors can't, or even shouldn't be upgradable. I am just wondering where you got the 'official' word to use that particular table. |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:18 AM
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#24
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
I sent an email to info(a)shadowrunrpg.com in October of last year. Rob Boyle answered the question in the quote above. Does that clear it up? |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:23 AM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The problem is that there is no mention of Sensors (only undefined, generic 'hardware') in that quote. Maybe it would help if the entire context of the conversation/email were available.
Be that as it may though, seeing as there is no better guidelines for upgrading, that table serves just fine. As I said, I was merely curious about an 'official' statement or ruling on the matter. |
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