What the heck is the Drone Sensor really?, How do they work? A description please Options

[Redjack]

Ok, I think I get what you are saying now.. though perhaps not. Let me try a longer explanation:

A pilot program is a super system program. It does all the work of a system plus. A pilot could feasibly replace a system but not vice versa.

A drone's sensor is a hyper-set of a com's signal. It provides the same basic functions and measures plus all the other capabilities of a drone's sensor.

So if I understand what you are alluding to, it is that a pilot has a separate cost from a system but a sensor does not have a separate cost from a signal. Right?

[Fortune]

[Redjack]

Actually, those are my own words from reading the various uses/application of the drone sensors.

I sat back and thought about the issue from the 50k' level. I realized that we had a syntax issue and then spent a few minutes trying to express the root cause of our disconnect. It seems that for drones, signal and sensors are being used interchangeably at the moment. I think the only thing to say right now is that until Arsenal comes out we have little choice but to use the table on page 240 as well as the ones on 324-325..

[Fortune]

Fair enough.

[kigmatzomat]

This is one of those crappy parts of the book. For one thing, Sensor is an attribute for drones, much like maneuverability or Pilot. Then there's the range of the sensor. Plus the rating of the individual sensing devices that might come up in a test (e.g. MAD scanner). Oh, and don't forget the capacity.

As far as what drones or vehicles come with stock, the rules say squat beyond p.159's vague "all vehicles have sensors" statement. We've always gone with the assumption that a bog standard 100Y camera (trid+sound per p.325) is included with any vehicle or drone from the factory. Being on par with the Mark 1 eyeball, it's good enough for navigation.

And yes, they will have a horrible time seeing jaywalkers. But since Pilots get an action every 2 seconds (3 actions turn, 6 second turns) odds are a vehicle will notice a person within ~4 seconds. Since I'd imagine that Pilot-driven vehicles will be obeying the speed limits which means <30mph in most urban environments, school zones, etc. the drone will perceive the jaywalker as long as they are >150ft away. Which is about right, since at 35mph a typical stopping distance is ~125ft.


Sensor range is, if not explicit, then covered between the second table on p.325 and the signal range table on p.212. It's a simple fact that smaller lenses/microphones/photoreceptors/antennas/etc provide less resolution. E.g. The "sensors" that search deep space are huge and a pinhole camera has a crappy depth of field. For simplicity's sake, I can see giving a uniform range based on the available space for the exposed portion of the sensor.

it's rational that the default range for an RFID tag sensor is 40m, crawler drones a range of 1km, vehicle weapon sensors 40km, etc. Exceptions would be a camera with vision mag (effective range for RFID 40m x 50 power = 2km) or a MAD sensor (5m even on a vehicle).

[Jaid]

also, somewhere in the book, it says something to the effect of "drones can share data".

so that perception test is, in fact, say 20-30 perception tests with 1-3 dice each by the drones, which drastically improves the chances.

as far as the actual default sensors, they are in fact operating on some sort of unknown sensory method, which is dirt cheap, but only really decently effective for detecting vehicles.

[WearzManySkins]

@Redjack,,thanks I never had you explain it, but it does make sense.

WMS

[laughingowl]

I have alway seen 'sensors' as more actually software...

It related (and repalces) intutition for a human.

'sensors' is how well the drone mind can process what its various feed are giving it.

My like Inutition (+ perception if you have it) allows you to process your senses of touch, taste, smell, sight, etc....


Personally I have always given drones/rigger adapted vehicles the 3 applicable sense (sight, hearing, touch) (dont really see smell and taste as standard)...


By default a drone can see, hear, or notice by touch with a rating equal to its default sensors.

So that Steel Lynx comes with by default a rating 3 camera, microphone, (and touch (normally for things like somebody messing with it).

If you wanted to 'upgrade' the drone, you would need to replace the camera 3, with a camera 6 (then it would have a rating 6 sensor for sight).

All sense are 'normal' unless additional ware is bought. (low-light, ultrasounds, etc)...


though unless special gear installed if the drone could/needs to make a perception test, it makes a sensor (+clearsight if any) test.


Also much like a human driver...

A drone does not need to make a roll to 'see' a person to avoid runnig them over, it can tell the road is not clear.

The 'detect a person' problem is NOT to see an obstacle in the road, rather it is to indentify a human, as opposed to the bush, as opposed to the blowing pieces of paper, etc.


Now this part is defaintly house rule but...

I just treated them personally exactly like I would a human/animal/etc...

If the human woudnt need to roll to see.. (steel lynx barrelling down the highway) .. nor would the drone.....

If human would need to roll (spot the micro drone fly, buzzing around the lamp) so would a drone....


So the entire SR4 seems to be based on the KISS principal I try to use that as my guage for rules...

Perception tests are made with Sensors + (perception rigging or Clearsight if drone)....

The 'basic' senses are presumed.... just like with metahumanity additional option could be added....

[Fortune]

That seems like a reasonable way of looking at it.

[The Jopp]

laughingowl has a good point and i like the way he describes it, it still annoys me that they couldn't add a few simple sentences that explain what base tech is included in the basic sensor (basic camera & microphone).

After all, the sensor upgrades must be paid for and is thus not included in the package of a drone as per their desription, just a sensor attribute.

Another example is the sensor packages. For me by reading it RAW it took me a few times to realize that to get a hand held sensor i just choose the appropriate sensors from the list (and paid for it) and called it "hand held sensor package".

Perhaps i was just a tad slow that day.

[The Jopp]

[The Jopp]

[Fortune]

Teamwork tests, if indeed applicable at all, would still be restricted to the drones' Skill level equivalent (Autosoft?).

[Jaid]

[Redjack]

[The Jopp]

I just realized something extremely frustrating about anything with the name "sensor" in it. They are all basically crappy at finding anything.

Whenever you want something to be found with a sensor or seen with a specific kind of sensor you roll Sensor Rating VS Sensor Table.

Now, here are a few problems.

Stationary sensors like RFID tags or cameras do they automatically register things within their range? Is their Sensor rating equal to their Device rating? What exactly do they roll to see things as they have no Pilot attribute (they are not drones).

Can their Sensor rating be upgraded? (not sure about what Redjack has written as i only see that the sensors RANGE can be increased through increasing the signal strenght, not the sensor rating itself.)

The radar sensor cyberware is a nice piece of ware but i also realized as a sensor it should force the player to roll against the sensor table to see people behind walls as it is a sensor and an additional opposed roll against hidden people. Sure, it is a wonderful mapping tool but for more detailed information an Electronic Warfare test should be applied.

[Fortune]

I think, similar to things like 'capacity' and the sort, the word 'sensor' is being used in more than just the one technical manner here. The Radar Sensor, for example, like the Ultrasound Sensor merely bear that name, but do not necessarily fall under the rules for Sensors.

[The Jopp]

[Riley37]

The sense-enhancing cyberware and goggles and so forth assume that the user starts with normal human sight and hearing, and go from there.
Thus, the rules for vehicles/drones make sense if standard-issue vehicles have optical sensors that see in the standard human visible spectrum, and have acoustic sensors equivalent to human hearing. Apparently even a 20X6 motorcycle can drive itself from point A to point B in simple circumstances. The "signature" sensor could be a very low-power, low-resolution radar, not nearly as good as the kind that people install on goggles and cybereyes, more like the 1990s "collision avoidance radars" that are just meant to detect nearby other vehicles.
"Camera" has two meanings: a device that can see, and a device that can capture/record images. A camera option to your cybereyes enables you to capture images. Presumably, drones without the camera option can see, but don't take pictures for later use. NB many (most?) fighter aircraft since WWII have "gun-cameras" which take a picture each time the forward gun is fired, which is useful in post-combat evaluations of what tactics worked well, or determining whose shot gets credit for the kill, so camera ought to be a common feature of combat drones.

[FlashbackJon]

I've had a bunch of questions about this myself.

A standard Kanmushi microdrone comes with a Sensor of 1, and can only mount a micro-sensor with a capacity of 1.

Do I...

• ...assume that the drone comes with a basic camera and microphone that can be enhanced as normal, leaving its microsensor capacity open for another sensor like a radio signal scanner (for example)?
• ...assume that the drone comes with a basic camera and microphone, but that I must purchase one, using its microsensor capacity, to enhance it?
• ...assume it contains NO microphone or camera, which must be purchased and placed in the microsensor capacity, which can then be enhanced?
• ...do something else entirely?

If the drone comes with no actual sensors (the last suggestion) how does one 'jump into' a microdrone or pilot it at all?

[Ol' Scratch]

Sensors is, like most things in this game, an abstraction. Part of it is the quality of the sensors themselves. Part of it is the software that cleans up and transmits the input. Part of it is how "intelligently" the drone can interpret what it's sensing.

It has little to do with individual sensors. It has nothing to do with cyberware implants. It has next to nothing to do with a metahuman's Perception Test. Those are all entirely different things that are only similar on the surface, and which interact with one another through completely different game mechanics.

It's like bringing up Physical and Stun Ratings and the Heal spell when trying to figure out what the rating of a Medkit represents. Yeah, they all relate to the same basic facet of the game, but the first two have nothing to do whatsoever with the latter. Same difference.

And unless you're prepared to sit down and micromanage every single aspect of the game to exacting degrees and cross-reference those rules with everything that touches upon those rules, it's pretty pointless to worry yourself over what the more abstract ratings (Sensors, Medkits, etc.) represent. If you want to improve those ratings, use the supplied rules for doing so rather than try to save a couple nuyen by cobbling things together and arguing how awesome it should be.

[FlashbackJon]

Well, aside from Redjack's "Sensor = Signal" concept, which I don't feel is supported anywhere in the book (namely because only half of the Sensor ratings match the supposed Device Ratings of the drones they're on), there are no rules for upgrading Sensors.

If there was some basis for upgrading Sensors (and I can only assume there will be with Arsenal or Rigger 8 or whatever), I'd be right there with ya.

But even Cameras and Microphones are rating-less devices.

[Redjack]

I'll be the first to agree with you that the "Sensor = Signal" concept is deficient, but lacking any clarification in the book I subscribed to a little abstraction until Arsenal (hopefully clarifies it).

I personally think that given most of the uses of "sensor" attribute seem more appropriate tied to be tied to the pilot attribute. In any case, I hate for mechanics to get in the way of the story too badly. :D

[eidolon]

[FlashbackJon]

So a microdrone can only have a camera OR a microphone OR a radio signal scanner?

How exactly does one operate a drone without a camera? How does the drone operate itself, even?

Maybe microdrones are just intended to be less useful than what I'm thinking - maybe the functionality I'm attributing to them is better assigned to minidrones instead.