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 Augmentation Review, What are your thoughts? |
 Sep 5 2007, 10:16 AM
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#26
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Great, I'm a Dragon...  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698  |
Cars have the same price tag. In SR as well as in the real world - and yet people manage to buy one. |
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Sep 5 2007, 10:25 AM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
That is true but that was not quite my point. The problem is that when they describe a cybernetic limb as something that poor people would use as they cant afford something better, that's where the rules VS fluff falls apart. Cloned limb Type O: 21K / 4 Weeks Cultured: 25K / 4 Weeks Cyberlimb Obvious: 15K Synthetic: 20K Availability: 4 The only basic difference between getting yourself a new cloned limb is TIME not money. Slash prices for cyberlimbs in half and the prices would reflect the option of getting a "cheap mechanical limb" compared to a good ol' cloned limb. |
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Sep 5 2007, 10:35 AM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I can just completely disagree with your comments here. It's merely a few pages and those implants are all improvements of what we have today. Not all implants are for runners and the rules should also reflect that as the books try to describe the world in shadowrun in as much detail as possible. I find it rather amusing that people get upset about genital replacement but dont raise eyebrows about combat drugs and pure narcotics in the game (which will most likely be covered more in Arsenal). Synthetic hair is already covered and is a nice flavor cyberware and so are the more genital implants as well. We also have Horn and fang implants that also have additional rules for them. The only people who WOULD make juvenile jokes about it are childish players (no matter their actual age). Its all about maturity. The point is that ALL cybernetics have their time and place and just because soemone decides that their character should have it does not mean that the player or those they play with would even raise an eyebrow if it fits the character much less make a joke about it. I would find it more humorous if some player decided to have a troll sized genital implant due to the social ramifications (is he compensating for something) and dangers of walking around with a firehose in ones pants, stumbling over it and being an easy target for groin kicks than anyone else but that is that players problem if he is that stupid. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:18 AM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
You are talking about a book that has no Index because it has not enough pages.
Wich makes them pretty boring: It's what people came up with, anyway.
But Augmention is written for Runners. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:18 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<shrugs> Anyone who defends and advocates wasting so much space on cocks and tits (or cyberingrown toenails or any other frivilous, useless piece of drivel that could have been condensed into a single entry) in a game that has nothing at all to do with cocks and tits doesn't have much room to whine/comment about a lack of space, whether they're calling it a lack of space, say "space was at a premium," or use any other term they want to try to color it. And especially when you churn that out in response for players (not me, as a side note) who were curious as to why they didn't get what they apparently considered desireable/needed clarification on something. All, again, so you could add in your juvenile little text about dicks and boobies. Teehee. You're so edgy! You're free to keep adding such pathetic content to the game all you want. And I'm free to keep bringing up how pathetic it is to do so, doubly so when you complain/mention/whatever about "space being a premium" in response to real content. And for the record, I wasn't the one who brought it up in this thread, nor am I the only one who feels as such. Loudest voice != only voice. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:33 AM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
I respectfully disagree as it is a book detailing augmentations in 2070, not just implants that are useful for runners. If it was only for runner we might as well remove several "non-runner" implants. Hydralic press Jackhammer nail Pistol (For cybered up carpenters running the shadows in their spare time) Vacum pump (For the cybernetic housemaid) Personally i would rather remove items as the Oral Slasher or Oral gun as i find them silly but the world has those items and that's why they are listed. For some peoples game some ware will be both silly and seen as unnessecary but others might see a use for it in their games. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:40 AM
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#32
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Augmention is only for runners. In fact, is only available to Jackpoint Members. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:51 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 9-June 06 From: Oxford, UK. Member No.: 8,687 |
Well, I found Augmentation was an amazing piece of work - kudos to all involved.
The cover is hideous, but the book itself is of a quality I haven't seen in a long time (well perhaps not so long after all... Say since SR4 :D). What I particularly liked is the way this book is actually a sourcebook on how the 2070 deals with cyber and bio augmentation, but also with rules in it. I found the fluff excellent, and the "in-characterness" of it - notably by the way the book is structured (Section introduction, fluff by technical expert, rules) truly excellent. Street Magic was good, but CGL have set themselves a new standard of excellence with Augmentation - I am waiting Arsenal with trepidation. And yes, I actually see the inclusion of cybercocks and cubertits as a mark of maturity rather than puerility - as in most cases, these things are in the eye of the beholder anyway. Cheers, Fumble. |
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Sep 5 2007, 11:55 AM
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#34
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
True, the fluff in the beginning explains that but the writers most likely meant it as a supplement to enrich the game world and not just the different kind of shady implementations. You would probably get ten different answers if you ask ten different people what "runner" implants were and would perhaps have to cut out a long list of gear from each book released. I stand by my opinion that the gear represents what exists in the game world and that augmentation is only for "runners" might be a misinterpretation as it is more likely for SIN'less people who cant get it any other way and thus need a catalogue in some other fashion that going to a legal clinic. |
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Sep 5 2007, 12:24 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 7-August 07 Member No.: 12,548 |
Augmentation certainly is written from the standpoint of a runner reading an article on Jackpoint but runners are also people - with everything that statement implies.
So runners may want to keep up on the latest cyber-fashion or whatever else that pops their cork. It doesn't mean that augmentation is purely for runner characters, a lot of 'ware is legal for Joe Blue to get installed and with the right permits they can also get more restricted items installed. This does not mean, therefore, that Augmentation is written specifically with runners in mind - just from their perspective, afterall that is the main focus of SR. Dr. Funkenstein, i realise that i'm risking this turning into a full scale flame-match, but i must ask you what you deem to be real content? As at the moment i'm unsure as to exactly what your problem is with the cyber-genitalia part of the book, other than, from what i can see, that it seems to upset you a great deal because you believe it is there as some childish joke. Now i understand that there are somethings that may have been better off taking it's place but without specific examples it makes it very hard to see what you're getting at. Similarly each example you could provide would have to be weighed by each reader and they make up their own mind as to if that would have been more suitable than the handful of paragraphs on cyber-genitals. Also, whilst you have not necessarily been the loudest voice nor the only one, you have been the one that has made his point in an increasingly angry manner for which i see no reason, other than you seem to want to convince the developers of augmentation that they are, in some way, wrong in their decision to produce Augmentation the way they did. In fact your comments have neared becoming downright libelous in that regard in your implications that the developers have given in to some juvenile behaviour in the production of Augmentation. It is understandable that people will become somewhat defensive when dealt with in such a high handed manner. The very reason i asked you to simmer down earlier. To sum up, the writers of SR are never going to please everyone with what they produce - it's just impossible to do. If 51 people liked the book and 49 didn't, i see it as the developers having done their job. If you are one of the unhappy people that didn't like what was printed that's a shame and no fault of yours, but you do yourself no good by yelling at the top of your lungs about it and berating the developers on an online forum when they, as they should, are going to stand by their decision - it's not like they can do anything about it now the book is published. If you really feel badly about and believe others to feel the same way, i suggest you send a letter to catalyst game studios politely explaining your displeasure with the new supplement and explain why you found it so displeasing and explain to them how you feel this situation should be resolved. Otherwise no amount of foot stamping and shouting on the internet is going to do anyone any good other than to make them look a fool. |
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Sep 5 2007, 12:30 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Huh? I said Americans. And Americans aren't any more obsessed with their personal appearance than Europeans are. Now straighten your teeth and put some deodorant on. :D |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:37 PM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I find it immensely humorous how everyone focuses on the tits and cocks portions of my posts and ignore the rest of it. Here, I'll try and sum it up and use some fillter text in its place. Real content is content that enhances gameplay or adds to the world in some significant fashion. What it isn't is adding detailed information on [smurfs] and [snorks] that, not only completely lack anything of value towards the game, but could easily have been summed up with a single sentence in the small section already talking about [animation] earlier in the chapter. Doubly so when "space is at a premium" and you have to cut content that actually does add something to the game -- as Synner was complaining/explaining/regurgitating/whatever about previously. When the editorial debate comes down to, "should we cut those paragraphs on [smurfs] and [snorks] to make room for this extended information to better explain [cyborgs], or kill the extra [jarhead] text to make room for this stuff that could just be a one-line footnote in the [animation] section? Aww fuck it, let's be 'mature' and add the [smurfs] and [snorks] because only [people from Madeupstania] would consider cutting it!", well, you've already failed on an epic scale. Especially if that is your decision and the main reason for making it (and, apparently, it was one of the leading reasons as Synner made abundantly clear when it first came up). :please: The fact that I'm boggled by the people who are saying having [smurfs] and [snorks] is somehow "mature" and a valuable addition to a game that has nothing to do with [kid's cartoons from the 80's] is a completely different discussion. |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:47 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Actually there was a reference to the Smurfs in the SSG in a shadowtalk about the possibility to change one's skin color.
Which means that the Smurfs are still popular enough to be known by Shadowrunners. I liked this reference and I'd have been disappointed to see a comment about cyborgs instead. On a serious note, I understand what you mean, but if you start thinking this way they could have removed a big part of the fluff (introductions, some shadowtalks), pictures, the short stories, implants that 'nobody is gonna use anyway'. Heck, they should compute the information value of each word of the book and remove low information words and replace them with informative text. |
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Sep 5 2007, 01:58 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Fluff often adds to the setting, as the world and major players are all part of the setting (and often targets, directly or indirectly, of runs). Shadowtalk... not so much anymore. It hasn't really been interesting or useful since 2nd Edition except for the exceptionally rare occasion. I'd honestly rather see shadowtalk get snipped in place of [smurfs] and [snorks]. At least that inspires some kind of a reaction beyond a big giant <yawn>.
But detailed information on [smurfs] and [snorks] in lieu of information that does pertain to the actual game? And actively choosing it instead of said content? That's just ludicrous. Doubly so when the reason for doing so is even more insane. That said, I feel the same way about spending so much space and time on mildly different "fluff" implants, like the aforementioned Jackhammer. But at least with those, there are solid rules associated with them and they can be actively useful to a runner (such as drilling a hole through a wall or breaking into a sewage plant; see it all the time in crime flicks, or even a former construction worker turned runner). [Smurfs] and [snorks]? Added to just to be added, and doing so without even putting anything interesting or even remotely useful about them in (other than taking up Capacity for some bizarro reason). I mean, even if the character was a former [animator], what do those rules add to the character? Nada. But, hey, at least the people responsible can hold their chests out proudly and proclaim that they're not sutffy [people from Madeupstania] and stand by their decision. That's apparently the only real reason so much space was wasted on it. |
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Sep 5 2007, 03:48 PM
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#40
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I'm gonna get a cybersmurf! Tee-hee!
I'm sorry. That was juvenile. It seems like it's just a question of: When does too much fluff become useless crap? And that's all it is, just because they give it an essence value and a price, it's still obviously fluff, vaguely disguised as crunch. Too much fluff (and what is too much depends very much on how the topic of said fluff relates to the game) is obviously bad, but not enough fluff leaves a game with no setting. The writers/developers are constantly trying to walk this line, both within each book and for the total of all the books. Some people will naturally want more or less crunch/fluff. Overall, I think they're doing a good job. The topic of cybersmurfs could've definitely been handled in a juvenile way in Augmentation, but I don't think that it was. (except by me, at the beginning of this post) Overall, Augmentation looks like a great book. It fixed half of my biggest gripes with SR4 (still waiting for Unwired for the rest) And frankly, I don't care how ugly the covers are as long as the content maintains this level of quality. ;-) |
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Sep 5 2007, 03:58 PM
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#41
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I'm surprised you all don't like the cover. I sort of do. I didn't like it on-screen, but on the hardcover prints at GenCon there was a lot more color depth (perhaps because of the glossy cover) than there was on-screen or on my PDF printout. Oh well.
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Sep 5 2007, 04:06 PM
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#42
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Meh, I'm still making up my mind about the cover. My point was, whether the cover is fantastic or crap, it's pretty low on my list of priorities for a gaming book.
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Sep 5 2007, 04:12 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Was it the best cover I've seen? No. But it was not the worst, either. That fine distinction would go to System Failure.
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Sep 5 2007, 05:17 PM
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#44
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Wacky. I loved the SF cover. You and I, Zhan Shi, definitely seem to have different eyes in our beholders ;)
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Sep 5 2007, 05:23 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Yeah, different strokes, etc. But Moon-Hawk is correct; the cover is low priority compared with what is inside. I would very much prefer a craptastic cover with great text than vice versa.
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Sep 5 2007, 05:45 PM
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#46
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Oh wow! Funkenstein is off again on his cyber-penises! For anyone who missed it, the last discussion on this was here.
Now I'm going to address this comment directly at Funkenstein and specifically exclude Rotbart who seems to be sincere in his dislike of non-game applicable rules. Funkenstein - you keep complaining that it was wasted space because it could have been devoted to something with an actual game application. I don't think anyone here believes that is your issue with the cyber-genitalia. The equal amount of space devoted to each of fibreoptic hair, nano-tattoos, silky skin, chloroplast skin, horn implants, and others has never set you off on a multi-page rant. Shaped dermal implants alone take up more space than that given to breast implants and they have zero game effect. Nor have you complained that all these other non-game applicable elements will lead to "gay jokes and fart gags" or are "pathetic" or "juvenille" or any of the other things you have said in reference to the sexually themed material. If you want to say that you, for whatever personal reasons, don't like this material in your game, then I think everyone here will shrug and say "don't include it, and happy gaming." But to use a fake argument about wasted space as a proxy way to deny the material to others because of your own personal beliefs is dishonest. Shadowrun would not be Shadowrun if it did not have a rich and fleshed out setting. And sex is a pretty big feature of any human culture or social or personal life. For most of us, the inclusion of this is not a big issue, but there's certainly no call to have a go at the developers or to look down on people who do use this in their game or even just enjoy the fluffing. What's particularly offensive in your attitude is the repeated strawmen you set up. You'll note that everyone has just been discussing the cyber-genitalia in neutral terms. It's you that has kept going on about "tits" and "cocks" in the mock voice of your perceived opponent. It's you who says that the inclusion of this material will "open the door to rules for taking a shit." That doesn't seem a real risk to any of us. And it's you who told me "Fancy yourself some kind of modern, sophisticated individual all you want." Well, yes, quite frankly, I do consider myself fairly modern and sophisticated. What I resent is the implication ("Fancy yourself") that it's some sort of mask so I can privately go "tee-hee - they printed the word penis" because you don't believe that anyone else's non-issue with the things can be genuine. Don't like it, don't include it. But don't make up arguments as to why it shouldn't be in the book where other people can use it. Dicks. Some are big, some are small, some are circumcised and some of them post on online forums. They're a fact of life and thus perfectly reasonably included in any book on life in 2070 at the cost of 12 lines on a half page. Now quit complaining. |
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Sep 5 2007, 05:53 PM
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#47
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...definitely my favourite quote from the book as well. As to Augmented Actually finally got the PDF (I can bypass the front cover). Yeah, makes me feel like a BTL junkie at a "Chips-Я-Us". Yes several of my faves are back like Chemical Gland, Clean Metabolism, and of course Cyberzombies (wooo hoo!) along with some cool new toys like Radar Sense, Jackhammer & welding laser attachments for modular cyberarms (now cyberlimbs have become interesting). Once Arsenal comes out, I might actually be able to work up a real campaign |
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Sep 5 2007, 07:43 PM
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#48
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Knock off the personal attacks, and baiting. Thanks.
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Sep 5 2007, 08:30 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Whoa. I hope this dosn't go the way of "Moleskin".
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Sep 5 2007, 08:30 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Thanks for proving my point for me.
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th April 2022 - 04:54 PM |
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