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> Totaling a van with your pistol, What ever happened to "hardened armor"?
kzt
post Sep 5 2007, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
A pistol shouldn't have much chance against a heavily armored vehicle. At least not for actually doing anything more than surface damage. Fully-automatic weapons would still have a pretty good shot at it, though, depending on how the attacker wants to apply the modifiers.

I'd argue that you can hose down a steel wall all day with an SMG and get nowhere. Windows and windshields should be very different. Sustained fire against armored glass should eventually (and not a huge number of shots) penetrate. Which they will not in SR4.
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Buster
post Sep 5 2007, 04:35 PM
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I think that would be correct for window technology (if there is such a specialty) by 2070. Even today, there are laminate windows that can take a full magazine spray from an assault rifle at point blank range and not fail (can't see through the window afterwards, but it doesn't collapse).
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Ryu
post Sep 5 2007, 05:52 PM
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Not everything that does have an armor rating is armored. The Mercury Comet offers 6 points already. We sorely need rules for upgrading vehicles...
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kzt
post Sep 5 2007, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
I think that would be correct for window technology (if there is such a specialty) by 2070. Even today, there are laminate windows that can take a full magazine spray from an assault rifle at point blank range and not fail (can't see through the window afterwards, but it doesn't collapse).

You'll notice how in the demos they spread the bullets out across the glass, they don't put the entire magazine into a 10 inch circle? There is a reason for that.
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Jaid
post Sep 5 2007, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Sep 5 2007, 12:03 AM)
The modified damage value becomes 12P (6P + 6 hits), while the modified armor value becomes 6 (8 armor - 2 armor piercing). Because 12 > 6, the pistol easily passes the van's "hardened armor" immunity (technically not hardened armor, but it's the same rules-wise, correct?).

Well, there's yar problem! Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor. DV 6 is not greater than 8-2, therefore not one shot got through or damaged the van. If you're firing small arms at a hardened target, you might as well be throwing rocks at it. In 2070, even the windows have the same armor value as the rest of the car. The best you can do is do a called shot to the tires (same as head shot because they're plated over and very little rubber shows).

No need for houserules, the RAW covers it.

actually, hits on the attack test do count for the purposes of penetrating armor.

it's burst fire that doesn't count.
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Aaron
post Sep 5 2007, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
Well, there's yar problem!  Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor.

You and I are obviously interpreting the phrase "modified DV" differently.*

*In case anyone's curious, I'm using the definition from the top of page 140.
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Veggiesama
post Sep 5 2007, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 5 2007, 08:52 AM)
Well, there's yar problem!  Hits from the attack roll don't count when calculating penetrating hardened armor.  DV 6 is not greater than 8-2, therefore not one shot got through or damaged the van.  If you're firing small arms at a hardened target, you might as well be throwing rocks at it.  In 2070, even the windows have the same armor value as the rest of the car.  The best you can do is do a called shot to the tires (same as head shot because they're plated over and very little rubber shows). 

No need for houserules, the RAW covers it.

Though I do think you are supposed to use the modified DV rather than the base DV, I do like your suggestion (though it's not RAW). It neatly skirts the problem of pistols being able to damage a big van, while still allowing AV rockets and the like to get by unimpeded.

OTOH, it is still rather arbitrary on the borderline. Given a van or a force 4 spirit (both with 8 hardened armor), a Ruger 100 sporting rifle (7P) can't touch them, but a PJSS Elaphant Rifle (9P) can slice right through them. But suddenly if you load up the Ruger with some EX Explosive rounds, it miraculously gains the ability to disrupt spirits and wtfpwn vans. There's still that problem with a borderline rather than gradual damage.
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Cain
post Sep 5 2007, 11:35 PM
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QUOTE
The armor is only ignored for the damage resistance test, not for the previous steps that involve a comparison of DV to Armor for the purposes of determining Stun or Physical dmg, bypassed armor (i.e., above hardened armor value) or immune to damage (i.e., below), etc.

You're looking at the wrong page. Pg 161 says: "If the attack's modified DV does not exceed the vehicle's modified armor, no damage is applied." Since the vehicle's armor has been modified to 0 by the called shot, it gets through.
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DTFarstar
post Sep 6 2007, 02:04 AM
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Keep in mind guys, that an armor rating of 8 doesn't meaning the van is armored. Even having the bullet ding off if it does less than 8 damage doesn't mean that. It represents the same thing that changing to stun does with an armor vest. It just means it doesn't penetrate, which with the metal shell of a car means really nothing except you should have it touched up and repainted, for us measly humans the force transfer HURTS. So, when I bullet DOES penetrate, then well I'm no mechanic, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't take too many bullets in the engine to make it mostly or completely non-functional. Once we get milspec armor, or things with a decent to high armor rating, I mean armor rating of 8? That's metal that is as hard to punch through as an Armor Jacket. Not that impressive.


Chris
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