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 Farewell..., Am off... |
 Sep 6 2007, 09:50 AM
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#26
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Free Spirit  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920  |
Sorry to hear you considering leaving. You are one of the newer members that contributed often and in a positive fashion to the forums.
Perhaps take a few months off and come back and visit? It's kind of amusing to me that when I once considered leaving, all I got was a single comment about a door and my ass. :) Can you not feel the friendship? Is it fair to the friends you have made? |
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Sep 6 2007, 11:51 AM
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#27
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
for fear of opening a can of worms, what did i miss?
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Sep 6 2007, 12:17 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
It's in the Augmentation review thread.
Long story short : knasser ended up in an argument with Doc Funk about the penile implant. One of his post ended with a witty remark which could be considered as a personal attack. So he got a PM from the mods telling him that he sould not say such things. Since knasser seems to have a strong distate for censorship (for personal historical reasons) and feels that such a thing is censorship, he decided to leave. @knasser: I liked your posts. When debating an issue, I found your posts constructive and free of ad-hoc arguments and other 'I know better than you' attitude, even if I sometimes didn't agree with your point of view. Have fun! |
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Sep 6 2007, 12:24 PM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I heartily applaud your impartial summation of the incident. :)
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Sep 6 2007, 12:30 PM
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#30
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thanks for the info blade.
knasser. its only sensorship if they where to block you from the site without warning, or hell maybe even erasing you whole post history... being told your may be stepping on some toes (some toes i do believe i have wanted to step on at times myself) is nothing. but then i guess i have not seen the level of sensorship that you may have. anyways, dumpshock is one of those places where you need a thick skin to survive, even if it seems to have taken a dive for the worse lately... |
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Sep 6 2007, 12:50 PM
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#31
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You need more than a thick skin. You need Full Body Armor with Non-conductive 6 and Edge. Everyone should have more Edge. :D
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Sep 6 2007, 01:56 PM
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#32
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
bah, who needs edge, i have a mental reality distortion field :silly:
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Sep 6 2007, 02:30 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Enforced politeness comes to mind. (Also, I'd suggest against appealing to common sense, given how variable and prone to being simply wrong it is) ~J |
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Sep 6 2007, 02:46 PM
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#34
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,868 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
Let me start off with the legalize: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect the views of dumpshock nor the other moderators
<personal opinion> According to the strictest definition of the word censorship, Nassar was in fact censored: An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism [American Heritage Dictionary] That said, for a community to function there must be a level of decorum. A reasonable level of civility in order to maintain function and process. To me, there is good censorship and bad censorship. This community, this board, has a pretty clear one in regards to no personal attacks. In the past few weeks, I have seen several people given suspensions from Dumpshock for violating that tenant and seen others given warnings [ or censored as defined above ]. Following those moderator interventions I have also seen some of the most petty, immature responses to those interventions. I have also seen people rise above and recognize the price of their continued negative action to the community as a whole. Seen them grasp the thankless job that it is to be the moderators and to try maintain that civility. If you believe that unfettered freedom of speech is of higher moral value than civilized debate then I wish you well. I applaud your standing by your beliefs to the point of separating from the community and wish you well in finding a like community to collaborate with. I do however believe that none of the moderators have acted out of any desire to inhibit free thought, nor have they moderated simply to flaunt their authority, instead acting with the health of the community as their guiding principle. As Aristotle noted earlier, there is a great deal of discussion that occurs around each moderator interaction and they are not taken lightly. I would ask any Dumpshock user who has been or ever does get a moderator intervention to look at the situation with what my sensei calls strict eyes. Remove your personal feelings from the situation and view your and actions and reactions from the perspective of others. Did you come across as you wanted? In the heat of the moment were you really trying to get a rise out of the person? Did your post/PM/etc say what you wanted it to say or was the message lost due to one phrase, one sentence, one paragraph not truly conveying your thoughts as you intended? </personal opinion> |
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Sep 6 2007, 02:52 PM
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#35
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Hey - it teaches people to insult each other very politely. |
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Sep 6 2007, 03:33 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I'd rather you stay, knasser. Like others, whether I have agreed with you or not, your posts were always worth my time reading...
Based on the issue at hand, I don't think its a big enough deal to leave. You called someone a name. No one is supposed to do that on this forum. So, you were warned and hopefully you, or anyone else, won't do it again. |
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Sep 6 2007, 04:09 PM
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#37
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
knasser, your point of view will be severely missed.
Consider; the people who will be most negatively affected by your leaving are you and the people who will miss your opinions, and I don't think that's your desired effect. I understand that you're upset, but I hope that when the dust settles you come back. If not, thanks for all your time and opinions. |
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Sep 6 2007, 05:34 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Knasser, whilst I agree with what you posted it did greatly appear that you were basically calling him a dick. Subtle or not you know there are rules against personal attacks. Not that I haven't seen funkenstein out of line numerous times as well. I will miss your insight and opinion, and I hope you reconsider leaving.
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Sep 6 2007, 08:45 PM
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#39
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Actually, he did not specifically call anyone a Dick. I think he said dicks will sometime post to forums. I agree, there was a strong implication of aiming it at someone, and being familiar with the Doc and similar situations, the likelihood of the situation deteriorating did merit some moderator intervention.
@ Knasser. At least it was apparent what you were being asked to refrain from. My first couple of PM warnings, years ago, had me going WTF? I honestly think one was influenced by Pistons closeness to the H&K faction, if that helps date it. At least the current moderator activity does not seem to involve personalities. Which is all to say, Knasser, you are not the only person to get warning PMs, or been the victim of moderator intervention. I am sure I am not the only person to get angry over some mod activity, or to think the mods had went beyond reason in some case. But until there is a better, livelier place to discuss and argue over this game we enjoy, one has to put up with the associated negatives. |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:49 AM
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#40
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
This may be asking for it, but I'm curious what your deifinition of "victim" is in this context.
Another where this may just be asking for it. To me it comes across as a jab at the mods. But I may be reading to much into it. Care to explain what you mean by "associated negatives"? |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:20 AM
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#41
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Victim - synonyms I may have used - target, recipient, object.
Associated negatives - posters one could usually do without; silly, crazy, rude, stupid posts; overly stringent moderation. I am sure everyone has their own opinion on relativity of 'associated negatives'. In Knasser's case, it was implied that some posters are dicks. He did not even link it to the poster he was in a discussion with and getting no where. I do not know what exactly the PM warning was. It sounds like it was a bit pre-emptive, heading off what was likely to become a flame. Hopefully, the PM reflected this state, and did not assume facts that had yet to occur. IMO, Knasser was toeing the acceptability line, but had yet to cross it, and so I also believe he was justified in feeling unduly/unjustly censored. I have asked for where the line is drawn. I have not gotten an exact reply, more of an it's an art not a science thing. But since the comment was not directed at anyone, or more accurately, it was directed at many un-named posters, Knasser's comment seems to fall in the artful category that no one but Dicks should be offended by. |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:23 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
As every moderation action that occurs on DSF is heavily discussed behind the scenes it should be clear that there are associated negatives behind moderation. Otherwise why would there be such a behind the scened discussion. I find it hard to believe that you don't understand that every act of moderation has a negative impact on the community here, the only reason you take the step of moderation is when you believe that the positive impact outweighs the negative. It is when that kind of consideration is not being made that moderation becomes a problem. Unfortunately for some of us the way we weigh the positives and negatives differs. While I've never personally received a PM warning, I've seen them come up in threads I've been participating in, and most likely directed partially towards me. What shames me is that I see the moderation driving off a positive contributor to DSF who has been provoked by someone I see as a disruptive member, who has likewise provoked others, and who will continue to bully regardless of the moderation. Just because some people don't care. That may be a personal attack, and this may have crossed a line. But I feel it needed to be said. |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:26 AM
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#43
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I asked because, as you pointed out , wording can change a lot . You chose the word 'victim'. Victim and Recipient are very different words. Knasser's warning wasn't preemptive. He 'artfully' called someone a dick, and was warned for it. Seriously, this is nothing more than simple name calling, gone way out of proportion. |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:33 AM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Whatever Doc may be, he is definitely not an unproductive member of this community. He has a good grasp of the game in all of its facets, a willingness to share that knowledge, and an ability to cut through the bullshit and explain something in easy to understand, and more importantly, relevant terms. Incidentally, I could say much the same for knasser. :) |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:35 AM
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#45
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I disagree. The majority of the time, one reminder in thread is all it takes to get things cooled down. Granted, there are times when a mod post cools a thread to the point where no one wants to post in it. I know that it happens, and it sucks. As you say, that's why things are considered and given a bit of a run before a mod poist. That doesn't mean that every mod intervention is inherently negative.
I agree that it sucks that Knasser is choosing to leave. I'd much rather he didn't. He's been around for quite a while, but I honestly do not understand why one PM has borught him to the decision to leave entirely.
Here I disagree. The user in question has been warned and suspended before. Continues behavior along the same vein would result in more of the same.
I don't consider it as such. It'd be pretty hypocritical to ask for feedback and then get pissed for getting it. |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:03 AM
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#46
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I agree with both of these descriptions of Doctor Funkenstein. I also think in the current state of moderator activity that the characteristics Demerzel pointed out should not be tolerated. Doctor Funkenstein knows he does it, he has acknowledged he does it, now he needs to stop or be stopped - not wait until someone succumbs to Doctor Funkenstein's baiting and responds in kind then gets censored. In the spirit of good moderating, when a poster keeps repeating the same post, especially in more than one thread, and other members state they are about tired of seeing it (this refers to that tenuous line no one seems to know where it is drawn), how about issuing a warning? This would hopefully alleviate some baiting and bullying. |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:08 AM
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#47
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm not sure what makes people think Doc Funk isn't receiving warnings or even the occasional time-out. Just because he doesn't start a thread about it every time he gets one doesn't mean it isn't happening, fellas.
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Sep 7 2007, 05:09 AM
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#48
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Then we;d be back here arguing about unfair censorship. When an arguement is brought on again and again in the same thread, to the point of derailing such as in the ongong Augmentation thread, I ask to take it to it's own thread. I did that. The thread was never brougth up, and the point was dropped. If someone had wanted to continue in that thread, then they're free to, and it's up to you wether or not you want to read it. |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:38 AM
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#49
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
And are these mod actions more of what I term pre-emptive, taking action before things get out of hand? If you do not see the relationship between stepping in with some mod action and scaring everyone into dropping the subject and abandoning the thread, perhaps you should not trust your judgement to make a moderator action. These pre-emptive mod actions are censorship. They are warnings for things that have not crossed the line or violated the TOS. Every pre-emptive mod action shifts the line further and further back, or makes the community feel the line is shifting and what will they be called out for next. Months ago, when I felt this pro-active moderation coming, I invoked the when they came for the ... parable, and was told I was being overdramatic. Lets wait a few more months and see who else they come for. |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:59 AM
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#50
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,863 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I've already acknowledged that one can and some times does lead to the other. You're suggesting, assuming that I'm understanding you properly, that we infact shouldn't say anything, just wait until it gets right to the point of sending PM warnings. Then we've got our selves right back to square one, where we have a user uspet about received a PM warning. So we don't say anything in the thread, right up until we have to warn someone. Seems to me that would lead to a lot of people getting uspet that they were given a PM warning out of the blue. Not helpful obviously.
If you recall the circumstances, I was asking you if you had an issue with me moving a thread of yours. Not doing it, but asking. That was what prompted you to write back with a very long PM about my being a nazi. I still feel you over reacted. I hadn't intended to bring it up. Oh well. I was equally confused when you suggested moving th e drop bear thread, then got upset when I agreed. You said the same thing then about waiting a few more months and see who else felt persecuted. Here you are again, asking the same. Now I can understand if you don't agree with my mod style, or others here. I can understand being upset about knasser leaving. I am as well. But again, this is over something incredibly petty. Someone called someone a bad name. Someone was told not to. Someone decided they didn't like that and left. This is not exactly a situation on scale with the holocaust.
They are reminders of the ToS. That's it. It makes much more sense to me to let someone know they're about to break a rule for using the site, then wait for them to do it. Would you rather just be given a ticket, or pulled over for speeding and let go with a warning? May be that's a bad gestapo example, but frankly it's all I got at the moment. :) We dont' go about editing or deleting posts that violate the ToS. but we do have rules, and they aren't going t o do much good if we don't enforce them. You were the one just asking us to enforce the rules on Doc weren't you? |
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