Hmm the new exploit (atleast I havent seen it yet) Options

[laughingowl]

Loan services (spirits)


It is possible to loan your spirit services to somebody else ...


Leader of Tir / Aztech (any strong magic tradition)...

reasonably good intiate say 4 (pure so magic 10)


Why not have 10, 20, 100 followers all summon a spirit and 'loan services.

100+ spirits adding dice and even your force 20 spell becomes trivial to max success and totally resist drain...


Do all the major 'magical' baddass have quicken force (magic*2) spells up for everything...

Sure they light up like a christmas tree... but what ward is going to mess with force 20 spells... heck... suddenly they are reasonably well protected even if they go into deep space (still force 8)

Forget bloodzilla Zhergzilla army is the new I win...

[Sma]

Aside from any rules issue at hand, with Aid Sorcery only being available to bound spirits you're spending upwards of a quartermillion yen in conjuring materials. I think with 100 mages backing you you are supposed to kick some ass. Having a couple of high force quickened spells should be the least you can do.

[Fortune]

[Big D]

Also, this is partly why you don't see "Aid Conjuration" on the task lists, or "Ritual Conjuration" as a skill.

There are enough blood spirit cheats out there as it is. :)

[laughingowl]

The catch is the 100 mages is overkill (atleast for any force 20 spell)

lets go with Force 20 combat sense

Ok drain equal force/2+2 so drain 12 (need 48 dice to buy no drain) (we will go with the worse mage ever of 1 - 1 in his drain stats... so need 46 dice from spirits to buy no drain)

need 20 hits.. (80 dice) to get maximum effect. (since magic has to be 10... we go with sorcery 1 (minimum again) so caster has 11 dice, need 69 from spirits..

total force of spirits needed: 115 * 500 (ritual material 500*force) = ¥57,500

Tell me what cyberware/bioware can give you +20 dice to and dodge test (and surprise test) for that kind of price. Further more especially if doing lots of level 2-3 spirits... you almomst certain are getting multiple services PER binding ritual... so cut that cost by a factor of 2,3 ,4 ,5...

another example:

Increase Reflexes force 20...

To cast with no drain: is force/2+2 so are crappy caster nbeed 46 dice again... (statically less, and less if normal stats)

Only need 4 hits... (maximum effect achieved) so 16 dice (11 already obtained from minimum stats required (magic 10, sorcery 1)... so only need 5 more dice.

Cost to cast: 51 dice (51*500 = 25,500)

Now quicken with 40 karma (double force to make effectively impossible to dispell)...

And you physad has permenant increased reflex at the best rating..

It would have cost him ... (presuming starting at 1 magic) 2*3+3*3+4*3+5*3= 42 karma to get this (and reaching the point he could have nothing else without intiatiated, be suspectable to loss if he got cyber, etc)..

Now the sammy would have paid:
100,000 nuyen for wired reflex 3 and 5 essence (though wouldnt need to spend karma)

or

240,000 and 1.5 essence for synaptic accerlator (and no karma)...


Glowing charcters are a FAR better return on money (for a magic based corp) to do, then cyberware or bioware...

(and heck it is faster, then surgical procedures)...

Any corporation that can get 8 mages (figure 8 mages charisma 3 means 24 spirits force 5 mean 120 extra dice, good enough to land any of these spells with no drain and maximum effectl

Is going to start outfitting their (atleast 'elite' forces) as glowing (magic buffed) characters rather then cyberware/bioware...

The cost is WAY cheaper... the stacking is almost unlimited... (if the person leaves, they have an automatic track back to them... (though rest assured the main mage is living in the corp bunker so place well warded so the people would be links back to him)



lets try augementing attributes:
we won't touch on the grey area of are increase attribute bound my augement caps I will say a flat yes)


Increase agility: Force 20 (to neigh impossible to break, certaily harder then frying cyberware, etc)...

Drain = force/2 - 2 so drain is 8... need 32 dice (start with 2) so need 30 dice from spirits.

Need 9 hits (for human) to maximumize agility(regardless of starting stat) so need 36 dice (start with 11) need 25 dice from spirits.

Total dice = 50, cost equals 50*500 = 25,000 nuyen and 40 karma (to be almost impossible to break...

We will presume so how the characer was minum stats build points and do it all with karma (to come closest)...

Agility1 to Agility 6 (maximum human natural) equals 2+3+4+5+6*3 = 60 karma
Agility 7-9
- Muscle toner 3 .6 essence and 24,000 nuyen
- improve agility (power) -3 (cost 6 power since over maximum)
- Muscle replacement 3 3 essence 15,000 nuyen
(now to be fair this also raise strength by three)

So total cost to get 9 agility:
60 karma + (one of the following)
.6 essnce and 24,000 nuyen
6 power points (plus being an adept)
3 essence and 15,000 nuyen

OR
25,000 nuyen of ritual materials and 40 karma (technically far less, but we want to keep it from being turned off)..

At force 20... Almost the full stats would be effective in even a complete mana void (if mage was magic 11 and could do force 21.... even in COMPELTE mana void the buffs would stay)...

You tell me which you want for your character....

Also the above could be done in as little as 5 hours (if actually 24 mages) or even 15 hours (and a few seconds) if each mage has to bind three spirits....


You tell me which is more effective from bottom line..

and 8 mages (all total stock (or very even very sub par stats) and one mage with magic 10 (but as listed otherwise a complete boob) isnt that much reasources (probably easier to get then the full medical staff needed to put and support he hospital to do the bioware/cyberware

[Fortune]

You are still not taking the teamwork rules into account. Even if you could have an army of Spirits use Aid Sorcery on your spell, that army would still be limited in size to your actual Skill level (ie. Spellcasting).

[Jaid]

[laughingowl]

[Whipstitch]

Not to mention, once you have a few dozen spirits wandering around ordered to do your bidding, it becomes a lot easier just to jot down a list of people you never particularly liked much and have them killed rather than fuss around with all that messy business of quickening spells and what not. :P

[Fortune]

[laughingowl]

Whipstitch...

The catch is this works even if your spirit pool is from true apprentices (magic 1-2 conjuring/binding 1-2)...

Ritual materialas are force*500 so 1 force 10 spirit costs the same as 10 force 1 spirits (with alot more likely to have ALOT more services with the force 1)...

So while 100 force 1 spirits would be annoying the wouldnt really be effective...

a classroom of novices could 'buff' the teacher very effectively with their horde of baby spirits..

[Jaid]

[Wasabi]

Keep in mind also that a loaned spirit must stay present in the Astral as only the mage that summoned it can bring it from the metaplanes.

This means every ward presents a problem for carting the loaned spirits around.

[Tarantula]

You're claiming the mage can do this for the measily cost of 40 karma. You're wrong.

First, they need to be a grade 4 initiate with magic 10.

G1 13
G2 16
G3 19
G4 21

M7 21
M8 24
M9 27
M10 30

Thats already a total of 171 karma.

Now, you so called "true appretices" Magic 2, Conjuring 2, Binding 2. Lets assume physical stats of 3 across the board. That means they get 4 dice to conjure the force 1 spirit. Vs the spirits 1 die to resist. Chances are 1 hit for the student, none for the spirit, one service. Then they have to bind it. Thats a magic + binding (DP 4) against 2xF of the spirit. Or 2 in this case. Chances are still 1 for student 0 for spirit, so the student gets a second service out of it. Not to mention a cost of 500¥.

Don't forget quickening is another 40 karma for the force 20 spell. Up to 201 karma now, and since our caster only has 11 DP and needs an extra 69 to buy hits, thats 69*500=34,500 cost for the spell.

So, for one maxxed quickened force 20 spell, we have a cost of 201 karma, and 34,500 nuyen. A common number thrown around on dumpshock is 4,000¥ is roughly equivilent to 1 karma point. That makes the 201 karma worth roughly 804,000. + 34,500 = 838,500¥.

Versus the street samurais 240,000 for synaptic accelerator, or 100,000 for wired.

Or you claim the adept spends 42 karma for the maxxed Increased reflexes because he has to raise his magic up to 6 to get them. That means the mage actually spent 243 karma to get his magic up to 10. 243 is a heck of a lot bigger than 42.

[Ryu]

I don´t care about 100 spirits, I care about two... the basic problem is that "aid sorcery" seems to stack. And speaking for our game: It doesn´t anymore. Nice catch though.

On your discussion: Spirits that are "lend" to another person should apply to that persons maximum-controlled-spirits limit, so high-force spirits are much better than low-force spirits. The conjuration of high-force spirits should indeed be done by other mages due to the risk of lethal drain.

[deek]

How is that any different from having a group of 100 novice hired guns all taking a single shot at your dodgy target? Even if only a few hit, the numbers along are going to take the single target out...

[nathanross]

Why arent you just doing ritual quickening? or tattoo magic? It may not be as powerfull, but I believe you can overcast at 10 (from magic 5) and then spend 30 karma (is that right?). Also, other people have brought up the idea of edge used in a ritual test, to get insane success, why not try to break that instead of your insane karma burn.

[Buster]

A spell (even a ritual spell) is limited to Force raw hits (not net hits) of the spell. This means that even if you throw a million Aid Sorceries at the test, you'll never get more than the Force of the spell in raw hits. The only exception to this is using Edge, but you only get the Edge dice and the exploding 6's from the Edge dice added to the hits of the force test. So even with 8 Edge, you'll only get a couple more hits on your test even if you have a million spirits Aiding your ritual/spellcasting.

[nathanross]

[Tarantula]

Actually buster, exploding 6's on a million dice would look statistically like this. 1,000,000 / 3 for successes. 333,333successes. /2 for those which are 6's. 166,666 hits that are 6's. /3 for hits of those that explode. 55,555 exploded hits. /2 for those that are 6's. 27,777 hits from 6's there. /3 for those which hit again. 9,259 hits from those. /2 for how many were a 6. 4,629 6's. /3 for exploded again. 1,543. /3 for hits. 514. /2 for 6's. 257. /3 for hits. 85. /2 for 6's. 42. /3 for hits. 14. /2 for 6's. 7. /3 for hits. 2. /2 for 6's. 1. /3 for hits. 0.

Total is... 333,333 base successes.... capped at force, lets say, 20 in this case.
Hits from exploding 6's:
Round 1 55,555
R2 9,259
R3 1,543
R4 257
R5 42
R6 2

Total hits on spellcasting... 20 + 57,399 = 57419.

Thats gonna be one hard spell to counterspell.

Edge dice CAN and DO make a difference, especially with aid sorcery or ritual magic.

[BishopMcQ]

Tarantula--The cap on Force comes into play, because that's the maximum number of hits possible. So the 57,399 don't matter. Obviously counterspelling the 20 hits that you got is going to be rough, but the excess doesn't matter for resisting, counterspelling or anything else.

A more mundane example Magician with 4 for all associated attributes and skills, casts Manabolt. He rolls well and gets 4 hits.

F1--Only 1 hit counts, thus a single hit on counterspelling or resistance cancels the spell.
F2--Only 2 hits count, thus it takes a total of 2 hits on counterspelling + resistance to cancel the spell.
F3--Only 3 hits count, thus it takes a total of 3 hits on counterspelling + resistance to cancel the spell.
F4+ Now all 4 hits count, thus it takes a total of 4 hits on counterspelling + resistance to cancel the spell.

Low force spells, mean it takes less effort to resist them, whether you have the full force in hits, or several thousand more because the absolute cap on hits, rather than net hits, is based on force.

For the example you gave to carry forward, the cap of force would have to be on Net Hits, which means after the resistance test is rolled. Edge and Aid Sorcery are useful for maximizing potential--a high force is still necessary to increase the difficulty to resist however.

[Tarantula]

No Bishop. The 57,399 was only from dice rolled due to edge being used in the test. Edge dice exceed the force limited hits cap.