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> I will Black Hammer your mom, For no reason
FrankTrollman
post Sep 8 2007, 03:23 PM
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Using existing Shadowrun technology, a Hacker should be able to kill people through the Matrix regardless of whether those people are currently connected to the Matrix. The Sim Module is an external device, a datajack is not required to transmit data in and out of a human brain, and the Matrix itself is wireless. So if someone is walking down the street, minding their own business, without even having a commlink or a datajack, some Hacker should be able point a Sim Module at them and open them up to hotsim brain state alterations.

In short, a Hacker should be able to use Black Hammer on anyone, anywhere. And the defense against this is not "shutting off your Matrix connection", because a Hacker can just give you a Matrix connection. The defense is "having a Hacker provide Spell Defense Electronic Warfare coverage." Because the connection can be created from the outside, you can't stop these attacks by tuning out, only by tuning in.

Not only should the Matrix work more like Magic does from a strictly game mechanics standpoint, but the effects of Matrix cybercombat should be more like Magic in its effects from a fluff standpoint. The Matrix rules are written as if participation in the Matrix were somehow voluntary. But it's not. The Matrix is all around you, and if people want to affect you with it, they totally can whether you can see it or not. It really is just like Astral Space that way.

-Frank
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Dissonance
post Sep 8 2007, 03:36 PM
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I... I actually agree with this idea. I mean, why the hell not? In Shadowrun, you live in a world where your next door neighbor might be carrying around a quasi-legal handgun made entirely out of ceramic and plastic materials. Hell, that weapon might actually be implanted into her forearm. Or maybe she's got electric cybernetic spurs.

Or maybe she's an adept and can just poke you hard enough to explode your face, The Story Of Ricky style. Or maybe her son is a mage and all that death trog metal he listens to is going to finally make him snap and he Powerballs a bus full of kids, or conjure up a blood spirit after learning how to do it from an Evil Internet.

Heck, hackers can already kill you in all sorts of horrible-but-indirect ways. Why not just have them be one more thing to potentially ruin your day? It's not like hackers are somehow more prone to murder and snapping than every other archetype out there.
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coolgrafix
post Sep 8 2007, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
So if someone is walking down the street, minding their own business, without even having a commlink or a datajack, some Hacker should be able point a Sim Module at them and open them up to hotsim brain state alterations.

What in the name of all that's holy makes you think you can just "point" a Sim Module at someone and induce ASIST?
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Dissonance
post Sep 8 2007, 03:50 PM
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Not literally, Coolgrafix. At least, I don't think he's advocating some kind of Sim Module Death Ray.

There was a discussion a while back about subscribing someone to your own Hotsim to brainfry them.
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Cthulhudreams
post Sep 8 2007, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Dissonance)
Not literally, Coolgrafix. At least, I don't think he's advocating some kind of Sim Module Death Ray.

There was a discussion a while back about subscribing someone to your own Hotsim to brainfry them.

How do you get a resisting subject to use hotsim?

*looks clueless*
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coolgrafix
post Sep 8 2007, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The Matrix rules are written as if participation in the Matrix were somehow voluntary. But it's not. The Matrix is all around you, and if people want to affect you with it, they totally can whether you can see it or not. It really is just like Astral Space that way.

How else would you interpret this?
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Prime Mover
post Sep 8 2007, 04:02 PM
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Would definetly be limited by signal range, would seem like there would be a way to stop it from happening with legal cutouts, but illegal wireless black IC weapon interesting idea.
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Dissonance
post Sep 8 2007, 04:02 PM
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I honestly don't know, man. I think the end of the thread culminated with the concept that in order to actually do this to a remotely tech-savvy opponent, you'd have to get into a grapple with them to use their skinlink, do some hacking to /force/ them onto /your/ hotsim, and send the code through your commlink onto their brain.

I honestly don't know. But the idea is that it's possible to burn out somebody's brain, even if they're not using a hotsim module. It's just hard. To the point where you might as well just shoot the bastard.
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Redjack
post Sep 8 2007, 04:09 PM
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Are we missing the fact that you need trodes connected to the sim module and the person? Even an implanted sim-module has to have the hardware modified to go "hot".
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 8 2007, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Redjack)
Even an implanted sim-module has to have the hardware modified to go "hot".


That's exactly the point. The "hotness" of the signal is a property of external hardware, not user actions, not personal preference. If someone is sending a signal to you through a sim module hat they have already set to hit sim - you're in hot sim. And they can kill you.

QUOTE
Are we missing the fact that you need trodes connected to the sim module and the person?


The trodes are a wireless device. The module can communicate with them wirelessly. The trodes can also come in liquid form or themselves be wireless. It's quite easy get a trode connection on someone against their will, and no particular reason why a larger device couldn't simply "trode" someone.

Remember, we don't actually give a damn about getting feedback from our victim. The less Matrix feedback they can hand off he better. All we want to do is induce brain state changes in the target that make them die. And that's well within the capabilities of the Matrix as described in SR4.

-Frank
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Sma
post Sep 8 2007, 04:37 PM
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While deckers hacking someones brain until blood comes out his ears is fun and definetley something I want in my game, the way to reach this pretty straight forward effect is at the moment so involved, slow and saddled with side effects that its usually way faster and easier to just shoot you target in the face.

The biggest peeve is that by forcing someone into hot sim you usually have accomplished the goal of taking him out of the immediate action, due to the RAS cutout. Plus there's no easy way to model spell defense onto EW since one is a free action while the other eats all your actions for as long as you want to keep it up, while still not guaranteeing you to be even involved at the time of the attack.
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mfb
post Sep 8 2007, 04:40 PM
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i was with you up until you turned the sim module into a Buck Rogers raygun. i don't like it from a game balance perspective because there is no limiting factor. a mage can only cast so many spells before he collapses in exhaustion. a decker, however, could hijack a radio tower and transmit death rays across an entire city.
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Redjack
post Sep 8 2007, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Redjack)
Even an implanted sim-module has to have the hardware modified to go "hot".


That's exactly the point. The "hotness" of the signal is a property of external hardware, not user actions, not personal preference. If someone is sending a signal to you through a sim module hat they have already set to hit sim - you're in hot sim. And they can kill you.

Sure, if the person is already in hot sim, then hack the com and go to town... However, hot sim is illegal.. so grandma ain't gonna have it.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
Are we missing the fact that you need trodes connected to the sim module and the person?


The trodes are a wireless device. The module can communicate with them wirelessly. The trodes can also come in liquid form or themselves be wireless. It's quite easy get a trode connection on someone against their will, and no particular reason why a larger device couldn't simply "trode" someone.

Ok, if a person uses wireless trodes then you now have a 1m range... So if you (1)hack their com and (2)they have trodes and (3)the trodes are wireless and (4)you either (a)get a hot sim within 1m or (b) get a fky-spy within 1m and use it as a relay...... then BAM! smokin'....

I'm with you to this point. But this is just all the more reason to keep some of the wires..
As a professional in the computer industry, I have a number of clients who will not enable 802.11 on their business network because the physcial and data link layer encryption is irrevocably broken and the cost/hassle of securing the connections at other layers is resource prohibitive.

What is my point? There will be three types of people here. People who do not have hot sim. People who have hot sim but mitigate the risks with a number of security considerations including some wires in the mix and the people who have hot sim but don't understand.. Script kiddies, Wanna-be's, the uneducated and those who are so cocky they think lightning could never strike them... It is only this last category that will be vulnerable. Granted that will probably include many of the people that a Shadowrunner wants to fry anyway... ;)
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Whipstitch
post Sep 8 2007, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 8 2007, 10:58 AM)
QUOTE (Dissonance @ Sep 8 2007, 10:50 AM)
Not literally, Coolgrafix.  At least, I don't think he's advocating some kind of Sim Module Death Ray.

There was a discussion a while back about subscribing someone to your own Hotsim to brainfry them.

How do you get a resisting subject to use hotsim?

*looks clueless*

They simply don't really get much of a chance to resist if you're not detected before you make the attack. You waltz into their PAN stealthily and spoof the commlink into believing it was just told by the user to flip over into hotsim. The victim will pick up on the fact that they're now in hotsim pretty quick, I would imagine, but during the time they're sitting there going "ZOMG, h4x!" you have a good clean chance to send them an amped up blast of biofeedback.
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Cthulhudreams
post Sep 8 2007, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 8 2007, 11:49 AM)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 8 2007, 10:58 AM)
QUOTE (Dissonance @ Sep 8 2007, 10:50 AM)
Not literally, Coolgrafix.  At least, I don't think he's advocating some kind of Sim Module Death Ray.

There was a discussion a while back about subscribing someone to your own Hotsim to brainfry them.

How do you get a resisting subject to use hotsim?

*looks clueless*

Simple; they don't really get much of a chance to resist if you're not detected before you make the attack. You waltz into their PAN stealthily and spoof the commlink into believing it was just told by the user to flip over into hotsim. The victim will pick up on the fact that they're now in hotsim pretty quick, I would imagine, but during the time they're sitting there going "ZOMG, h4x!" you have a good, clean chance to send them an amped up blast of biofeedback.

The original scenario said 'even if they are not using a commlink' hence my confusion. I assumed that 'your mom' wouldn;t have a hotsim enabled commlink anyway so thats the bit that was curious :)

Edit: Wait, if I have a commlink with hotsim and then use your commlink into your datajack.. I can give you hotsim via that right?
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MaxHunter
post Sep 8 2007, 05:00 PM
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...and that person would need a datajack or trodes now wouldn't they?

Cheers,

Max
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 8 2007, 05:04 PM
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I think the thing you're missing is that a (Hot) Sim Module is a device that purposely allows the higher-grade signals to come through. They're like the opposite of a breaker switch.

You can take your Sim Module and throw it out the window and still use your Black Hammer for the same net effect. Sim Modules have zero impact on the signals you send out OR receive (and I don't give a fuck what loophole in the rules might say othwerwise, including it being an external device on a commlink). Those signals are constantly flying around. The Sim Module just allows them to zap into -your- brain, and -your- brain alone.

Any and all legal devices other than a Sim Module is automatically set to tone down those signals to legal levels. It doesn't even have to be said; that's the entire point of a Sim Module. *You* can tell your DNI to ignore those signals, but the actual devices used to transmit and receive the data from the Matrix (ie, Commlink) require a Sim Module to actually get the signals.

If all it took were boosted signals, you wouldn't need a Sim Module to use hot VR to begin with.
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Wasabi
post Sep 8 2007, 05:07 PM
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Something with Hot Sim shouldn't run in Hot Sim without a DNI being involved.
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MaxHunter
post Sep 8 2007, 05:07 PM
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sorry, lotsa people posted before my elderly crippled fingers ended the post.
I wanted to point out that the person receiving frank's death ray should have some kind of receiving hardware, that is: trodes or a datajack and also those have to be wireless enabled and/or spoofed to comply. -but the latter is the easiest- why worrying hacking people's cybereyes if you can just brainfry them instead?

Complementarily: Does a person with a Vehicle control Rig qualify?

Cheers,

Max
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 8 2007, 05:16 PM
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The trodes in the basic book are low dignal for security reasons (although this ironically means that you can jam trodes very easily). But they don't have to be. You could have a higher signal trode setup that would reach people's brains from farther away.

QUOTE (cthulhudreams)
The original scenario said 'even if they are not using a commlink' hence my confusion. I assumed that 'your mom' wouldn;t have a hotsim enabled commlink anyway so thats the bit that was curious


Yes. The target doesn't need to have a commlink. It's actually better if they don't, because a Commlink gives them a chane to defend themselves.

In order to be subjected to HotSim you need two things:
  1. A DNI (such as from a Datajack or Trode Net).
  2. A SimModule that has been HotSim modified.


The exciting thing about this is that neither of those objects actually has to be on your person. The guy performing the HotSim attack can proide both th DNI and the SimModule wirelessly. At that point they have the on/off switch and you're hosed.

So yeah, because your mom isn't tech savvy enough to have a commlink, I can bypass all that "Matrix Combat" crap and skip straight to the part where I use Black Hammer on her every action.

QUOTE (Sma)
The biggest peeve is that by forcing someone into hot sim you usually have accomplished the goal of taking him out of the immediate action, due to the RAS cutout. Plus there's no easy way to model spell defense onto EW since one is a free action while the other eats all your actions for as long as you want to keep it up, while still not guaranteeing you to be even involved at the time of the attack.


Yes. That's a problem. I find the Matrix rules to be highly unfortunate. Not only do they not connect the dots (for example: Black Hammering your mom), but they leave horrendous loopholes that make me cry (Script Kiddie, Agent Smith). Worse yet, I don't really think any of this is going to be fixed in Unwired. The proposed "fixes" to Agent Smith don't really fix the underlying problem (character replacement) at all - they just make an Agent Smith attack cost extra :nuyen:

The solution is to change the rules. Electronic Warfare should be reactive in this case as Counterspelling is. Otherwise, as I'm sure you've noticed, there's really no defense at all for non-hackers getting Matrix-fragged.

-Frank
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 8 2007, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The exciting thing about this is that neither of those objects actually has to be on your person. The guy performing the HotSim attack can proide both th DNI and the SimModule wirelessly.

No. He can provide the Sim Module wirelessly, but not the DNI / Trodes per RAW:
DNI is, well, a direct neural interface, wired to your brain. Trodes are emitters&sensors positioned directly around your head. That's as far as SR techlevel goes.

So, to fictionally completly remotely attack a target, you would need to position sensors and emitters in a half-sphere around the target, and hit his head with the transmissions... at which point you are performing multiple called shots that all need to stay in target for some time.
At which point you are better off installing a microwave emitter strong enough to cook his brain directly.
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mfb
post Sep 8 2007, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Yes. The target doesn't need to have a commlink. It's actually better if they don't, because a Commlink gives them a chane to defend themselves.

that's another gigantic game balance problem: having a commlink doesn't stop a haxx0r from haxx0ring your brain either. a commlink doesn't protect you from the death rays you're proposing.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 8 2007, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Yes. The target doesn't need to have a commlink. It's actually better if they don't, because a Commlink gives them a chane to defend themselves.

that's another gigantic game balance problem: having a commlink doesn't stop a haxx0r from haxx0ring your brain either. a commlink doesn't protect you from the death rays you're proposing.

But it gives you a Response and Firewall. At least it turns the Momhammer into something other than a straight success test to determine how dead you are.

-Frank
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Sma
post Sep 8 2007, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE
...Yes. That's a problem. I find the Matrix rules to be highly unfortunate...


Agreed.

I've been thinking about overhauling the matrix rules, but since they "kind of" work as long as noone is trying to be an ass or taking things to their logical extreme, I have lacked the motivation to do so, and instead made do with minor fixes.

Things I'd like to see or change in no particular order of preference:

- Everything has an Icon, that you can interact with.
- No rolls at all to see an Icon unless there's stealth or EW involved.
- The realspace positions of Icons should match their matrix and or AR positions. Although it is probably better to handle
- Accounts and their levels, while being realistic are a pain in the ass since there's very little reason not to shoot for admin and basically having a free ride from then on. They add a decidely nonfun amount of bookkeeping on the basis that you're supposed to figure out what account level allows exactly what operation for each and every node you visit.
- ASA and the mix of program rating skill and logic have been mentioned and are imo either insolvable in case of agents or reasonably easily houseruled.
- Agents or semiintelligent programs should be everywhere. The rules mention cyberpets, cyberfriends and cyberlandscapes. This should be what an agent is. Making them more than glorified Browse, Knowsoft (hot cyberlovin') and Analyze (0), doesn't add to the game in a good way.
- Dicepool sizes from 1-20, which is pretty close to what SR gives us at the moment, so no major quibble there.
- Compatability with the existing Cyberware and Equipment such as medkits, maglockpickers, etc.
- Program ratings that either exist in a meaningful way, or get dropped altogether.
- Simrigs, simmodules and trodenets/datajacks should be one unit. AR gets projected right in your brain.
- Bigger incentives for everyone to get the implanted version if available. Replacing your eyes or drilling a hole in your head fits the setting, getting reusable contact lenses or a hairnet decidedly is not.
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mfb
post Sep 8 2007, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
But it gives you a Response and Firewall. At least it turns the Momhammer into something other than a straight success test to determine how dead you are.

it doesn't give you response or firewall at all. if you can directly manipulate someone's brain, there's no need to bother hacking their commlink. just point your zapgun at them and squeeze the trigger. the only way to stop your zap gun is to somehow cancel out the actual physical signal itself.

it's like allowing hackers to plug in an invisible ethernet cord from any range. it doesn't matter if your wireless network is encrypted and the admin password on your router is unguessable--they can just plug their invisible ethernet cable into your computer and do whatever they want. not a perfect example, but you see what i mean.

just so we're clear, i agree that this is what the technology (if not the actual rules) allows. i just don't agree that this is a good, fun thing that the rules should take advantage of.
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