 Say it ain't so!, Bioware costs Essence?! |
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 Sep 11 2007, 02:39 PM
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#26
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314  |
I'm not so certain that it's the common gamer you're taking anything away from. Anybody who can't perform arithmetic on fractions or can't use a calculator probably shouldn't be gaming (the same for those who can't afford a calculator; they have better things to think about). It does take the game away from the casual gamer, however. Although I'd say if a player has abandoned the archetypes and is either generating her own starting character or buying high-grade cyberware, she's left the realm of the casual gamer. |
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Sep 11 2007, 02:46 PM
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#27
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...ahem...? ...well I always keep Word open to do my spell checking (I've had PHP Spell break down too many times). When I want some special character like, say, the above Greek, Cyrillic, or Croatian with accents, I type it in Word first and then paste. |
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Sep 11 2007, 06:30 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
I think I'll take the 3rd position and say that both of them are pretty clunky. I'd even be fine with saying 9 is the new 6 for essence! Mages are already over powered, so it's not like it's that much more frosting on the mage cake.
That being said, I understood SR4's rules on the first read through, it took me more than one read through to understand the bioindex section in SR3's source book. |
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Sep 11 2007, 08:11 PM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Um ... thanks, I think. :) |
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Sep 11 2007, 08:27 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I always thought that the bio and essence indexes were emblematic of SR3's problems in general. The mechanics worked fine and weren't even truly very difficult to use once you read through it all, but it was a bit clunky because the devs always manage to add in some new terms for people to keep track of. With the SR4 rules, you're at least always dealing with plain ol' Essence and bio and cyberware are presented as two slightly different flavors of the same mechanic. With the old bioindex rules, the book first had to clarify the difference between bioindex, essence index and essence rating just to get everyone on the same page before delving into how exactly you calculated it all out.
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Sep 11 2007, 08:52 PM
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#31
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...пожалуйÑ?та |
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Sep 11 2007, 08:59 PM
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#32
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Hey, Fortune. If you're running Windows, you can always expand the library of languages available to the Windows IME. You type the words phonetically using roman characters, and it converts them to the native script. It's how I can type in 日本語　/　��ん�　/　ニホンゴ using my english-based PC and keyboard.
If you don't have the IME enabled, you have to install foreign language support with the Windows disk, or download the package from online. Pretty handy stuff, IMO. |
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Sep 11 2007, 08:59 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,360 |
[offtopic]
Firefox 2 has a built-in spellchecker. Use it. Love it. [/offtopic] |
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Sep 11 2007, 10:12 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Why would you want to type a bunch of squares seperated by slashes? ;) |
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Sep 11 2007, 10:42 PM
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#35
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
They all look like '?'s to me. But thanks none the less, Adarael. :D |
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Sep 11 2007, 11:10 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958 |
This touches on something that has always driven me nuts about SR: duplication of nearly identical effects.
I can improve my initiative passes via drugs, cyberware, bioware, a magical spell, or being an adept. Each of those gives a completely different description of the same effect. It's inefficient to the point of lunacy. The book should give the rules for initiative boosters in one place and then describe the various ways the same effect can be achieved. And this should apply pretty much across the board. To get back on topic, bioware is wonderfully flavourful stuff, but it doesn't need it's own rules. If I was to redo the system, bioware would be functionally equivalent in every way to high grade cyberware. There should be fluff differences, of course, but making the system more complex to support something that is really pure fluff is lunacy. |
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Sep 11 2007, 11:20 PM
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#37
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's got more to do with writing quality than actual complexity. Bioindex and the halving system aren't really more complicated;the halving system is just sillier, and claims to be simpler and more streamlined. Where the difference lies is that SR4's writing quality is much better. Let's face it, FASA's layout and writing quality was never all that. So, we have a badly-written complex system that admitted it was a complex system, or a well-written complex system that lies and pretends it's simpler. Neither is really that much better than the other. BTW, to repeat my question: If you have the Type O Edge, and you have more Cyber than Bio, does your essence cost get halved yet again? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? 8) |
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Sep 11 2007, 11:33 PM
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#38
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..the other thing is you could have 6 - 9 BI worth of Bio implants and still have an Essence of 6 provided you didn't get any Cyber.
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Sep 12 2007, 12:18 AM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes, just the same as if it was Delta in the first place. |
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Sep 12 2007, 12:18 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Yes Cain. Because such reductions take place on the cost that goes into the bio total. If you buy delta bio normally, and have more cyber than bio, then the cost is halved too. |
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Sep 12 2007, 12:26 AM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
If that's you bag, I suggest looking at systems like Tri-stat Dx: where the rules only describe effects, and leave it to you to come up with the justifications for why they work. Under that system, if you can attack someone at 50' and do X points of damage, it costs you Y points to purchase, and you can call it a magic spell or a implanted gun or whatever you want to. I converted shadowrun to tri-stat just before sr4 came out. But I prefer the multiple similar but slightly different effects. It gives flavor, like different varieties of tomato make a better sauce together. |
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Sep 12 2007, 01:31 AM
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#42
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
This is the moment when I would normally look at one of my players and say "get over it."
Since the Man and Machine errata came out in 2003, the concept of taking an essence hit plus half the bioware has applied to mages. With SR4, that application has been spread to everyone equally. The 6-9 BioIndex with an essence of 6 was possible, but for the people who really cared about their essence, they still had to pay for it. Personally I think everyone playing with the same set of rules is easier to remember, and because it is halved, you can cram just about the same amount of Cyber and Bioware into your body as before. Now instead of inducing biosystem shock and then dying, you just die. |
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Sep 12 2007, 11:20 AM
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#43
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
or for that matter any superhero like game, hero, mutants&masterminds and others all use effect based systems. want to hurt someone in m&m? blast, want it to be a spell? take the magic power source, beyond that blast is blast is blast. sure you can slap some elemental effect on it, or limit its range for when you want to make someone that use fists rather then beams, but the pattern is the same every time. hmm, didnt they release a cyberpunk game using tri-stat right before the publisher folded? ex machina i think the title was. iirc, it got rave reviews, not because of its system but because of its settings (3 of them, describing different takes on cyberpunk iirc). |
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Sep 12 2007, 12:45 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
So what you are saying is you have 4 points of cyber and 3 points base (before any mods for grade and whatnot) of bio... Well, here's what I'd say based on the the rules as written... 4 points for Cyber 0.75 points for Bio. 3 * 0.5 for Type-O / Delta Grade = 1.5 So your totals would look like so... Cyber: 4 Bio: 1.5 Then you halve the lower value and add them together for the final Essence Cost. This would leave you with... Cyber: 4.0 Bio: 0.75 Total: 4.75 Remember, Type O trait allows you to treat standard Bioware as Delta Grade. Grade modifiers apply before any halving based iirc. I'm basing this on that really long thread where people were tearing apart the whole separate totals and halving thing about 2 months ago. The examples given there by Synner showed grade was applied before a given side (cyber or bio) was totalled. |
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Sep 12 2007, 01:48 PM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Type O quality modifications are factored directly into the implant cost during installation and so are already calculated when you add up your bioware total.
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Sep 12 2007, 05:11 PM
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#46
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
So, l emme get this straight....
Let's say you want a Sleep Regulator (0.25 Essence). Halve it for Type O. (.125 Essence.) Then halve again for The Cyber/Bio split. (0.0625) So, we're now taking things to 4 decimal places?? And this is "Streamlined"? Next question: Does Delta grade bio still count for reductions if you have Type o? |
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Sep 12 2007, 05:23 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
As much as I'd like it to, I'd have to say no since Delta grade is basically made specifically for you. Type O is already "specifically you". Hence how do you make it "more" you?
The answer is, you can't. :( |
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Sep 12 2007, 05:44 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Why is 4 decimal points not streamlined?
Type O makes the bioware count as delta, so starting with delta (or anything above standard) is pointless. |
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Sep 12 2007, 06:18 PM
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#49
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
That's why everything should be done with fractions, instead of decimals. So the Sleep Regulator costs 1/4 essence, out of your total of 6. Halve it for Type O. (1/8 essence) Halve it again for the split (1/16) Then, if for example you need to add in something that costs 1/5, it's just 21/80, leaving you with 5 59/80, or if you prefer simple fractions 459/80! Simple! And with no cumbersome long decimals! :grinbig: |
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Sep 12 2007, 06:28 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Alternatively, just start everyone with 60,000 essence and multiply all essence costs by 10,000.
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