 New system for firearms, Slight adjustment to the way they work |
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 Sep 20 2007, 08:27 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170  |
As even modern theory can only provide a partial idea as to how much damage a round will do (size or target, organs damaged etc) it makes creating an acurate system harder.
They know size and depth are relevant, expansion is only partially relevant ans bullets only expand about 60% of the time due to the round either tumbling or getting tied up in other materials. So the only reliable basis for damage is penetration with diameter. The headache now is getting the statistics and them creating the right equation. Guess I need some more earplugs to sop my brain leaking out of my ears again . . . |
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Sep 20 2007, 01:36 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
.45ACP for the win! :) Seriously, though, in most of the RPGs I have encountered, bullet damage seems to be modeled on instant trauma, rather than long term disability & blood loss. In this aspect, I think most bullets are fairly close. I believe gunfights are usually decided long before blood loss and organ damage become an issue. Also, since psychology has so much to do with the "1-shot stop", Willpower might have a place in the roll to resist damage. An 800-lb troll who gets woozy at the blood bank will go down a lot sooner after being shot than a 98lb ganger who is on PCP and has been beaten up regularly his entire life. |
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Sep 20 2007, 04:10 PM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
I have always thought will power should have some effect on this, and PCP would be an entity un to its self (there are documented cases of people still advancing after multiple mortal wounds on PCP)
I might add as a house rule that damage track is worked off bod + Will / 2 Modern thought is a 1 shot stop that doesn't involve a CNS hit is a fallacy, and even a shot to the heart will leave some one functioning for 15 second plus with the oxygen in the blood stream. The Maths involved in a 'real' system for bullet damage would be a nightmare and far beyond the scope of shadowrun and a lot less fun (ok, I shot him, where is that calculator so I can work out damage, now just give me 10 mins) it is just a case of finding a nice balance, that works. |
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Sep 20 2007, 05:06 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
True, but only until the temporary cavity exceeds the elastic limit of body tissues. Which is why small animals explode when you hit them with varmint rounds. I'm told that at the 2500-3000 FPS you start seeing some damage to humans from the temporary cavity. However, all the reputable wound ballistic "round effectiveness" analysis I have seen focus on handguns rounds. Apparently shotguns, 5.56 and 7.62 are generally considered so much more effective on stopping bad guys right now that nobody will pay for the analysis. So I'm not sure that really true. |
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Sep 20 2007, 05:13 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
If we have long-term effects that are largely physical, and short term effects that are largely psychological, maybe all gunshot wounds (and by extension all wounds) should have a stun component resisted by willpower. Or even model shock as one of the drug effects like "nausea"
The hard part would be making this smooth and playable. Also, this might lead into different kinds of willpower. Continuing my example above, it is reasonable that the 800lb troll just one day decided to quit Nico-stix, and never touched another one, while the ganger cannot pass a stuffer shack because he is jonesing for a twinkie. |
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Sep 20 2007, 05:16 PM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
That's fine if you are writing a gunfight simulation system, but I'd kind of like there to be some effects that become significant after the shootout, as the is supposed to be an RPG and not an FPS.
It really does seem that psychology is hugely important. Motivated people can be really hard to stop even when rather shot up, and poorly motivated people can be incapacitate/move to give up by a fairly superficial wound. Not sure how to effectively simulate this, but some sort of factor based on will and mental state makes sense. People who have no idea that someone is shooting at them seem (in my totally non-systematic and non-scientific observations) to be more likely to be immediately dropped than those who know there is a fight on. |
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Sep 20 2007, 05:17 PM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Cweord, I've done what you are attempting to do, several times, across 3 separate editions of Shadowrun. I've learned a lot in the process, and it's greatly deepened my knowledge of terminal ballistics. However, I feel that you (just like I did in the past) are working backwards.
All of us gun-nuts (and even some gun-moderates) want a bit more realism with our SR firearms. We want rifles to be more reliable at fucking people up than pistols (with some caveats), we want weapons chambered for particular calibers, we want meaningful rates of fire and an accurate depiction of autofire. However, instead of trying to shoehorn real-world ballistics into the the non-granular SR system, try going at it from the other direction. Write up an outline about the pros and cons of different platforms and different calibers. Then use that as your basis to setup your rules. It shouldn't matter so much that whether or not it's realistic that a 7.62x51mm NATO round does double the DV of a 9mm. What matters is that there are mechanics that make the 7.62 a better choice than then 9mm sometimes, but also situations where the 9mm is a better choice than the 7.62. Once you have it down how you want weapons and calibers to behave in a general sense, then you can start putting rules to it. Beware...this is likely to blossom into a project that is much bigger than you are anticipating. Not only did I have to convert 200+ firearms for my system, I also had to completely overhaul the armor rules, as well as the recoil, BF, and FA rules. |
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Sep 20 2007, 05:22 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I don't really care about "real-world' calibers. I've talked to enough people who have been in enough gunfights that I'm unconvinced that there is enough real difference between a 9mm and a .45 to be effectively modeled at this scale of game. Both of them are pretty darn ineffective at dropping motivated adversaries even with multiple hits.
But rifles should do significantly more damage,etc. |
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Sep 20 2007, 05:28 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I am behind you 100% there. I would leave it as it is before I totally ignored the after effects. I also don't want this to become a sci-fi Phoenix Command or Harpoon. I would like to end up with a smooth mechanism for a person with a non critical gunshot wound to have a chance of passing out/giving up, and some degree of blood loss to deal with after the combat is over. Obviously if you take a CNS hit, you are done, and some blood vessel hits give you enough time to say goodbye. Most of the time, you have time for some medkit/DocWagon/street doc drama. |
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Sep 20 2007, 08:28 PM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
I, as I have kept saying am not after an 100 % actuate depiction, The reason I started this was to switch range and damage, as the way round they are didn't make sense. Range was fairly easy to do, and is based on the figures already used in shadowrun. I could with Ammo just create my own 2070 variants of ammo and leave it there, but I would like it based on real world statistics if I can (I had an idea of running a campaign 2015ish with UGE and the awakening going on) as this enables people to create their own ammo base on modern ballistics if they want. Temporary wound cavity and fragmentation of the round starts to take effect in bullets with a velocity over 2000fps, that is only rifle rounds, and as such will be taken in to account. As far as the number of different ammos I will have to stat, I will just give out the equation (eg, (Round diameter (mm) + 1/2 Penetration (cm)/4 x1 + 1 for every 1000 fps over 2000) please note theses are pretty arbitrary figures that I just pulled out of my . . .) and people can stat their ammo, same with the rules for range. |
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Sep 20 2007, 08:42 PM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 26-January 06 From: Harrisonburg, VA Member No.: 8,196 |
FWIW, The Box O' Truth has some interesting ballistics test. http://www.theboxotruth.com/ Most of them involve waterjugs, but water to flesh is about 2|1. 16 inches of water penetration is about 8 inches of flesh penetration. (get your mind out of the gutter) I also included some other goodies in Wounded Ronin's post... Here. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19090 And to whoever said "Most of us gun nuts want realism in our SR guns", I'm one of the exceptions. I just want to get my SR on. I'll worry about 9/.40/.45 at the range. :D |
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Sep 20 2007, 10:17 PM
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#62
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
The nice thing about getting all this info, is that i'm not a gun nut, I couldn't be even if I wanted in the UK. I just figure if I am going to fiddle with the damages, I should do it properly and from an appropriately educated perspective.
Otherwise I could end up with .44Mag and .22LR in the same damage bracket and that would just be messed up. The headache will come if I decide to work out damage adjustment for Silenced rounds (which of course wouldn't effect .45 as it is subsonic out of the box) |
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Sep 20 2007, 10:57 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Assuming you use subsonic rounds (which isn't required) the main difference I'd expect would be to armor penetration. This assumes you use rounds designed for subsonic use and are not doing something crazy like downloading power charges in hollowpoints.
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Sep 21 2007, 03:05 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I am reminded of a neat system one of the folks on the GURPS forum came up with. I won't burden you with the minutia, but the bullet vs armor part of the equation was highly predictable, while the bullet vs body part was highly variable.
I liked that. One part of a vest is essentially tough as any other, but one inch in any direction can turn a flesh wound into a critical bleeder. I guess if we were to turn that into SR4 stats, you might take an armor value away from the damage value, then resist the remainder normally. Both AV and DV would need to be re-balanced though. Perhaps you only add damage from extra hits if the base damage exceeds armor? A big caveat to this is that Hit locations is a very common optional rule in GURPS games. |
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Sep 21 2007, 03:17 AM
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#65
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Heck with powder go with mercury fills. Very nice wounds they make. :D WMS |
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Sep 21 2007, 06:07 AM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Given the cyberlimbs and other similar stuff, SR is a game that cries out for hit locations. |
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Sep 21 2007, 08:31 AM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
I use hit locations as necessary, I created a chart then rather then adjusting the roll for cover, I roll on the location table - if you hit a visible area, great. It also gets used if you get a glitch or critical clutch on a damage roll to work out where the damage is.
The best hit location system I saw (for determining location, NOT for actual play) was Millenniums End, and with that you knew exactly where your round had gone - but it was horrible complicated and slowed play excessively. Thanks for the info on subsonic. If I was in the US I would be down at a range trying some of this stuff out, but alas the Firearms laws are a tad excessive in the UK. |
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Sep 21 2007, 11:17 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
The easy part of integrating hit locs in SR4 would be the mechanic itself. We are generally throwing lots of D6s anyway, make some of them double as location dice.
Just off the top of my head, Battletech used 2d6 for location, GURPS uses 3d6 for location, I am sure there must be many other 2-4d6 hit location charts out there. The harder part would be re-evaluating all the armor for it's protection and coverage. I liked the Millenniums end hit loc system in concept. Never played it though. I have a system based on it for GURPS that I would love to playtest. |
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Sep 21 2007, 02:16 PM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
You'll also take a considerable hit on effective range...much more so with subsonic rifle ammo than with subsonic pistol ammo. A 230 grain .45 ACP bullet leaves a 4" barrel at somewhere around 900 fps...that's already subsonic. However, a 55 grain 5.56x45mm bullet fired from a 20" barrel is going about 3200 fps at the muzzle. Slowing that bad-boy down to ~1000 fps is not only going to murder your penetration, it's also going to drastically reduce your effective range and throw off your zero. Of course, if you want true and effective subsonic rifle cartridges, I suggest you google the Whisper™ line of cartridges. |
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Sep 21 2007, 02:17 PM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Mercury fills? WTF? Do you even have a clue what you are talking about? KZT was talking about download the powder charge to make a cartridge subsonic. WTF does that have to do with mercury? |
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Sep 21 2007, 02:31 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I was actually contemplating something like this...sorta. My thoughts were as follows: a Hit Location chart that looks something like this: 1D6 roll: 1: Extremity (leg) [base DV + movement penalties] 2: Extremity (arm) [base DV + Agi/Str penalties] 3-4: Center mass (torso) [DV + 1] 5: Center mass (vital area) [DV +2] 6: Head [DV + 4] Instead of net hits adding to DV, you handle it this way: Roll a number of D6s = to your net hits, take the highest single die, and that's where you hit. For example, if you score 4 net hits, then you roll those 4 dice and get 2, 3, 3, 5, then you take the best die (5), and you've got a center mass vitals hit. Disclaimer: I haven't done ANY amount of real research or testing on this system, and I'm not even sure that 1D6 is the right way to do it, or that the chart shouldn't be expanded. Maybe something like 2D6 and make the range 2-12, and head shots only happen on a 12 or something. At any rate, I think all of you get the idea. |
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Sep 21 2007, 02:59 PM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
See, I do it an easier way, I only use it when necessary due to a specific result. If you have a critical Glitch I'll use it to locate the area of a the damage, and to see if any cyberwear is likely to have been damaged, or to replace modifiers for cover (which I never liked)
If you want a better chance of hitting someone in cover make a called shot, otherwise you have a greater chance of hitting the cover. The trick is not to have it effect the fundamentals of the game, if you start calculating hit location for every round, it adds time and slows combat, and then you also need to start thinking about hits per location . . . My way it is a secondary mechanic rather than a primary one. Who knows, maybe there will be stuff to cover this in Arsenal. On that note, can anyone give us any hints if anything like this is covered, so we don't spend 3 weeks hammering out a set of rules only to find out it is superseded a month later (or when ever Arsenal comes out, as I cant find as much as a hint to a date over here). |
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Sep 22 2007, 06:55 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 9-December 04 From: former Bug City, now CFS Member No.: 6,875 |
Hey, how about we put our stuff up on the SixthWorldWiki?
The OneRonin's system amazingly thorough and the damage codes probably very close to real life (although I've never been shot, so I can't confirm this). He even calculated the recoil value for each firearm (physics). Maybe he'll post it so you can get a look-see. Personally, I have been working on a spreadsheet which is 90% finished which covers mostly old, but commonly used firearms (sort of a "Fields of Fire" for the Third World). I think it would be cool to get all this information out there so we can discuss it. I'll try and get my stuff up tomorrow. EDIT: Okay, I put an older version up here. I think the Sixth World Wiki is a better site, but this graph is quite hideous and out-of-date by about a month, so I didn't want to muss it up too much. Also, there doesn't seem to be an area on SWW that deals with alternative rules. I've made a number of changes to what you can see there, btw, but it gives you an impression of the sort of thing I'm going for. |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:21 AM
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#74
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
For hit locations, try the following:
(on 2d6): 2 head 3 head 4 head 5 head 6 thorax 7 abdomen 8 thorax 9 leg 10 leg 11 arm 12 arm with the full write-up being found here: armor, hit locations, and math Re: mercury filled rounds These are an attempt to improve bullet fragmentation/expansion. They do not convert your weapon into a magic death wand that fires off avada kedavra every time you pull the trigger. |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:47 AM
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#75
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@theoneronin
One can take a hollow point round, fill the hollow area with a small amount of mercury then seal the open end of the hollow point. One can also take a "regular" round and drill down into the round creating the space for the mercury to go into. But this method will require some precision in the drilling, which is easily down in todays world of CNC machinery. The you fill the drilled out area with the mercury and then seal the open end. The wound effect of a mercury fill is like a Glaser Safety Slug, but it also has the side effect of causing mercury poisoning in any target that lives thru it, and yes they are pretty much illegal for any use other than target shooting or wound studies, but since the Hazmat on the mercury is pretty fierce... These were designed and used before ammunition like the Glaser Safety Slug, were developed. Links are here http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4404 http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/mercury_in_bullet.html http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...869&#entry20869 Read down in this link about the vaseline filled bullet. http://www.gunthing.com/index.php/forum/vi...iewthread/1523/ WMS |
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