 New system for firearms, Slight adjustment to the way they work |
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 Sep 24 2007, 12:53 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128  |
And like a glaser, it will probabaly make a huge, nasty, but non critical fleshwound.
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Sep 24 2007, 01:48 AM
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#77
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@Ed 209
True but the Glaser had design limitations due the environment it was supposed to be used in too. WMS |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:03 AM
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#78
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
All stone and marble courthouses IIRC. Ricochet heaven.
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Sep 24 2007, 02:12 AM
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#79
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@KZT
IIRC The Glaser was designed when the first Sky Marshall's were set up, ie a round that could hit a window plastic section, penetrate the first layer but not the outer layer, not caused a hole all the way thru, and also cause a wound to the target hi-jacker. My understanding the Sky Marshall's have "better" round or rounds now. WMS |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:29 AM
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#80
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Glaser seems to have been acquired by Con-Bor and the Glaser specific data on their web site is gone. But I'm pretty sure that it wasn't designed for the air marshals and that it will go right through an aircraft pressure hull. It was used by air marshals, but I think to prevent over-penetration.
Of course, since the SS groupies that run the air Marshals decided to go the the most penetrating handgun possible (.357 sig) obviously they don't worry about over-penetration anymore. |
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Sep 24 2007, 02:56 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
True. I wish when people talk about the high points of the glaser family, they would start with "It almost never ricochets" and "It almost never overpenetrates.", not it's Hollywood reputation for turning targets into cube steak with one hit. |
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Sep 24 2007, 03:06 AM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I saw an episode of Mythbusters (Yeah, great science, I know...) where they tested airliner depressurization from handgun fire. They took an old airliner body, made it airtight, then pressurized it to the relative inside/outside pressure at cruising altitude. They then shot the window and the fuselage. Basically, all they saw was an annoying whistling noise as the air left the little hole. This may be why air marshals aren't using low pen rounds anymore. Stopping the hijacker and putting a few little holes in the plane probably puts the passengers in less risk than what the hijackers had in mind. |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:10 PM
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#83
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
You completely missed my point. For the record, I do have at least a passing familiarity with the technique of using mercury to aid in bullet expansion. But "bullet effectiveness/expansion" had NOTHING to do with the post you originally quoted. Here, let me show you (emphasis mine):
Okay, in the above post, KZT is talking about velocity controlled ammunition which is used to reduce the sound signature of a firearm by keeping the muzzle velocity of the projectile below the speed of sound. Then he mentions that one way (a poor way to go about it) to make a bullet subsonic is to under-load the powder in something like a JHP round. Under-loading the powder reduces the muzzle velocity of the projectile, but will have several other undesirable effects as well. Your follow-up comment said "Heck with powder go with mercury fills." 1. Mercury fills have NOTHING whatsoever to do with attempts to make a bullet subsonic. 2. KZT's comment about powder had NOTHING whatsoever to do with bullet lethality. If you would have thoroughly read his post, you should have gathered that. 3. My guess is you keyed off the words "powder" and "hollowpoints" and figured you'd make a witty comment about how "mercury fills" adds more lethality than messing with the "powder" charge in a cartridge. 4. You seem to have learned everything you know about firearms by repeated viewings of Die Hard and Lethal Weapon. I apologize if my post seems hostile, but there is so much misinformation and crap out on the net, and it irks me when people post crap that they think makes them look cool when all it really does is A.) spread misinformation to those that don't know better, B.) not have anything at all to do with original post/quoted post, or C.) both. You look less dumb by asking a question like "Would the lethality of mercury fills mitigate the loss of velocity due to using subsonic ammunition?", than you would by posting what you posted. |
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Sep 24 2007, 01:54 PM
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#84
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 8-September 07 From: Boston, England Member No.: 13,170 |
Well, I for one would like to thank you all, I have learned large amounts about ballistics, and bullet dynamics here. Yes it's going to make my life a little more complicated, but not seriously so.
It has also consolidated my though that anyone forming a police state should get hold of the role players first, and shoot us all. A we have the nasty imaginations to think of inventive ways to fight back, B, we end up with a lot of the knowledge of how to do it as well . . . (I wonder how many lists for security agency's that comment put me on). I'll keep plugging away at this till I get something satisfactory, then post it for you all |
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Sep 24 2007, 04:41 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
The thing that will save most of us from being put against the wall is that most of us have no actual experience with violence. Gamers tend to be very low threat when we don't have dice and a GM screen protecting us from that horror. |
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Sep 24 2007, 10:00 PM
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#86
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 26-January 06 From: Harrisonburg, VA Member No.: 8,196 |
.357 SIG is HARDLY the most over-penetrating round... Far from it, in fact.... As for Glasers, they were invented back in about '74. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...s/frangible.htm
It's kind of an interesting read. And you're right, it doesn't mention the cube-steak effect. :lick: |
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Sep 24 2007, 10:39 PM
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#87
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@AbNo
Good read, seems my memory is still good about the time frame. WMS |
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Sep 25 2007, 02:50 AM
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#88
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I remember Austere Emancipator was posting here a while ago on this forum about being hit by glaser cartridges would be extremely non-traumatic compared to being hit with regular ball cartridges. Maybe someone can give me their second opinion on that? I need to adjust my Jagged Alliance 2 XMLs and specifically the properties of glaser cartridges therein.
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Sep 25 2007, 03:52 AM
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#89
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Look for a gelatin profile of a glaser to see why.
.357 JSP .357 Glaser They are both bad, but 5 inch penetration isn't assured to get vital organs from many angles. |
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Sep 25 2007, 04:55 AM
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#90
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Frangible pistol rounds can usually manage only around 4-6 inches of penetration into gelatin. In addition, the deepest penetrating stuff is very small.
Frangible rifle rounds usually don't begin to fragment until penetrating 3+ inches of gelatin, and major pieces of the round tend to penetrate much further into the gelatin in any event. |
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Sep 25 2007, 05:19 AM
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#91
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 26-January 06 From: Harrisonburg, VA Member No.: 8,196 |
Something to think about...
On a soft target, frangible (Glaser type) rounds create multiple, jagged wound cavities. While none is as large as say, a .40 round, multiple smaller cavities can increase internal bleeding quite a bit, provided they don't hit armor. Furthermore, shrapnel from these rounds in the lung or heart can mean a very bad day for someone. |
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Sep 25 2007, 05:55 AM
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#92
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The problem here is that the fight or flight response constricts all blood vessels near the surface of the body. So the blood vessels most likely to be disrupted by the frangible pistol round are also likely to be constricted during the confrontation, leading to reduced blood loss.
Besides killing someone by blood loss takes quite a long time. This is plenty of time for the other guy to inflict eventually fatal wounds on you (and others) before he finally expires. |
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Sep 25 2007, 08:26 AM
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#93
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
So, I'm getting the message of superficial damage only for the glasers. They should probably be inferior in terms of injurious trauma than ball ammo.
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Sep 25 2007, 10:54 AM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
You end up with very ugly, but non-critical wounds, because unless your target is facing you and wearing nothing more than a t-shirt, most of the fragmentation is stopped inside the muscle layer. The volume of meat perforated is probably larger than with a good JHP, but since less of that volume would be good old organ meat, you have less chance of major internal bleeding. |
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