 SR4 Glossary: BTLs, What can it actually do? |
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 Sep 16 2007, 07:57 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235  |
I've seen a couple advanced hacker strategies floating around here involving use of BTLs. So you hack into someone's commlink, find their sim module, flick it over to hot-sim, and run a BTL at them. If they don't have a sim module that can run hot, you have to do some more hacking work involving subscribing them to a hot-sim module of your own and then running it at that.
So, they're getting all chipped up. Your options are dreamchips, moodchips, personafix, and tripchips. In the context of a shadowrun, dreamchips'll knock somebody out, tripchips will confuse them. Moodchips could be useful during negotiations if you want to make someone favorably disposed toward you, although wouldn't they notice their brains are being messed with? But it sounds like people here think that personafix can do a lot. Now, obviously you can't code your own in any reasonable span of time, it'd take too long. So given that you're pretty much stuck with "historical figures or pop culture icons, though there is also a small market for animals," I mean, it'd be kinda funny to watch the mage that's been harassing your party walk like a buffalo, but I can't really see the tremendous utility there. Besides which, I really don't see why someone couldn't just turn their sim-module off as soon as the BTL starts running, or even as soon as they notice it's switched modes. So, open call to people who enjoy making their GM's lives difficult: how do you tactically use BTLs? |
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Sep 16 2007, 08:19 PM
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Well, there isn't a switch by default to go from cold to hot stim. If your Sim module hasn't been modified for Hot sim, then you can't make it go to hot sim. However, if you've hacked their PAN, you could bypass their sim module and go with your own spare hot-modded sim module.
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Sep 16 2007, 08:26 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
I assumed there was a way to enable both cold-sim and hot-sim on a sim module. I mean, I know it's highly illegal and requires hardware checks, but once those are done I figure you could switch between the two at will. So there's a decent chance that other runners who get in your way would have their sim modules set to cold by default, but would be hot-enabled. Or, y'know I'm totally wrong. Whatever, not a big deal, just stick in your own sim module feed.
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Sep 16 2007, 08:42 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091 |
another option is when the person is not all together, slot a BTL and let it run lose. My group has done that at least once I can think of to a projecting mage. Mage became very very unhappy at that point. Plus they dont go for the simple baseline BTLs, they go for the extra hardcore ones.
If you dont have a hot sim to run it in, then it is not every effective. And you can not make a cold-sim to a hot-sim on the fly. It is a hardware modification. |
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Sep 16 2007, 08:58 PM
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#5
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...as I pointed out up in the MomHammer thread...
...ergo, a standard sim module cannot be forced into Hot mode for as stated above, it needs a Hardware not Programming test to do so. So the Matrix Specialist or electronics technician has to physically alter the unit to receive hot sim signals. ...next.
...finally...
...again, emphasis mine. So even if one is in cold VR mode the worst effect will be unconsciousness unless they successfully jack out. ...this would also apply to forcing a BTL on a commlink is not hot Sim rigged. |
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Sep 16 2007, 09:20 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
Great, so now we all know how the rules work. They're really very simple. Which is why I started with this:
Also, this:
Finally, this:
So now that we all agree we have our shiny hot-sim modified sim module and have hacked into some sap's commlink and spoofed it into accepting the feed from our sim module, now what? |
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Sep 16 2007, 09:26 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 4-September 07 Member No.: 13,115 |
You don't just 'flick it over to hot sim' for starters.
Making a sim module 'hot' is something you can only do by modifying the commlink (you know, with tools) and it takes time (Extended test, 10, 1hour, 250¥ for the parts). That said, most people no not use their commlinks in this fashion, making the tactic rather touch and go. Do people honestly think this is a good idea in their games? Chances are most people (unless they are hackers or addicts) do not use Hot ASIST. The percentage is just to low to give this any real tactical significance. The vast majority of people you run into are not doing DNI (if they're smart). The moment this even became popular in the Shadows anyone with half a brain would (even though they could go DNI) would use AR via glasses, contacts, or goggles, and manipulate AROs with gloves (since it’s rather common and they come in all kinds of trendy styles) just to stay safe. Trodes and DNI would usually slip into 'home use' and certainly the average guy on the street doesn't keep his commlink fixed for Hot ASIST (since it's illegal and drones can and do search for that sort of thing when they perform ID checks). Just my 2¥. If you guys think it's okay for your game, feel free. I'm not saying *I* wouldn't use it from times to time, but I just don't think it's efficient enough to consider a viable tactical option. Might go great for a good plot hook ala Strange Days. |
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Sep 16 2007, 10:41 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you're missing the point, hartbaine.
you're not using their sim module. you, the hacker, are providing the hot sim module. you connect it into their PAN (which, for this idea to work at all, you must be controlling at the time) via wireless, and *then* you send them hot sim signals (such as BTLs). as far as BTLs that have game effects beyond what putting someone into full sim gives, i would probably assign ratings to the BTLs, and treat them like similar illusion or mental manipulation spells. obviously, the rating of the BTL would be tested against the opponent (probably i'd go BTL rating vs willpower + another mental stat, with tests made maybe every minute or so.) i'd probably throw some tests in to resist long term unpleasantness, but that wouldn't apply for someone who is only being affected for a minute or so (addiction tests may apply, however). mind you, that's just off the top of my head... hopefully arsenal (which will apparently have drug rules) and/or unwired (which will presumably have rules for psychotropic stuff) will cover this situation with some rules that have had more than a minute of thought put into them, ideally with lots of playtesting as well ;) |
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Sep 16 2007, 10:54 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 4-September 07 Member No.: 13,115 |
But still, unless they were accessing their own PAN via DNI it would not work. Granted I assumed going through their Sim module was one aspect of it, but even if you used your own, without the DNI it would fail. Would you go DNI in public knowing that people could do this to you? Chances are you wouldn't. NPC should think on the same scale. If it is done then it would certainly be noticeable, the victim would know what's being done to him/her, making this not very wise to do to a Fixer or Johnson... Chances are, since people here thought of it, it can be assumed that it's been pulled since the inception of wireless Matrix and people simply would not place themselves in a position to have that done to them. Like leaving your own personal information on websites or in public. You know it's not smart considering what people can do with it these days so you know better. Same here, people in 2070 know better and chances are they do not do DNI if they can help it. This is their brain for FFS... they wouldn't just leave it out for people to toy with. |
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Sep 16 2007, 11:20 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
people will do all kinds of dumb things. people jump off of bridges with a giant elastic attached to their ankles. you think that's good for your health? you think it's not risky? people drink poison that will, sooner or later, destroy their liver. and they drink lots of it. and they drink it regularly. knowing full well that it has bad effects on their body. it's called alcohol. people inhale the smoke from a burning substance. does that sound like a brilliant idea to you? i mean, assuming you weren't brought up in a society where cigarettes are common, would you just sit down and think to yourself, "hey, i should inhale some burning hot smoke, that sounds like a great idea! nothing could possibly be unhealthy about that!" and yet, people do it. all the time. everyone knows that being obese carries with it significant health risks. based on your logic, there aren't any obese people in the world, either. people have unprotected sex all the time. they know that there's a risk of getting some sort of horrible disease, but they do it anyways. why? let's face it, people do dumb things all the time, without even thinking about it, and DNI will be no different. it is, quite simply, convenient to have DNI access to stuff. therefore, people will use it (lots of people, most likely) on a regular basis, because we are, on the whole, lazy, and are almost always willing to place our immediate desires in the foreground and push the risks straight into the background or even just out of the picture entirely, refusing to acknowledge it could ever be a problem. many things will change in the next 60 years. i would be very surprised if one of things was for people to stop doing stupid things, especially in a society that does everything it can to protect us from the fallout of our own stupidity. |
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Sep 16 2007, 11:22 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
That's definitely not the example you want to be using there, Hartbaine. People leave their personal information all over the damned place online, and as a direct result given a small bit of information to work off of I (or you) can find out someone's first and last name, place of residence, phone numbers (listed and unlisted), their shopping habits, a picture, and all sorts of other stuff. But anyway, the point is not that you're actively using cold (or hot) sim in public. Presumably your DNI interface is plugged into your PAN. Usually it's not being used, but since it's connected, a hacker could hack your commlink, turn on your DNI stuff, and black hammer your mom - I mean, point a hot-sim module at you and go to town. Other people, am I right on this one? |
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Sep 16 2007, 11:51 PM
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#12
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Didn't this thread just happen? Kidding aside, go through that thread and replace "the Black Hammer Program" with "the contents of a BTL" and you'll have pages of information, argument, and refutation to look through. Just so it's clear, this isn't a mod post or anything, and I'm not trying to shut down your discussion or anything. I just think that what you're after is probably already addressed over there, because as I see it, what you're trying to do is effectively the same: force another person to go hot and then dump something harmful in their face, and there are pages of discussion on that already.
Actually, once you have performed the physical modifications on the sim module, you do just flick back and forth. It takes a free action to switch. (SR4, pg.229, Switching Modes, first paragraph) |
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Sep 17 2007, 12:18 AM
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#13
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
it has happened, and it will happen again, eidolon.
and when unwired comes out, people will just find more examples and counter examples to toss onto the bonfire... |
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Sep 17 2007, 12:33 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 4-September 07 Member No.: 13,115 |
I'm aware. However the original seemed generalized, like everyone runs Hot Sim. That's not the case. The chances of someone running hot sim & DNI and not be a hacker or an addict is very slim. But the "Well, I'm just a no namer guy put here for the players to exploit and kick around, no point in me thinking like a rational person. Guess I'll go jump off a bridge, cuz ya know, people do stupid things." mentality seems to be very prevalent. |
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Sep 17 2007, 12:52 AM
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#15
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
@hob: Of course. :) I wanted to make sure the OP knew it was along the same lines, though, because a lot of folks will get tired of posting what they think about a particular subject over and over, so they won't, and then ideas get missed. I try to offer thread pointers when I can just in case. (Although Ive been slacking on it lately. Part of that is that a lot of stuff in SR4 is still new enough that each thread is different most of the time.)
@Hartbaine: Agreed. I don't think average dude on the street is walking around with even so much as a hot sim capable sim module, let alone one that's turned on and cranked up. But what the Momhammer folks and the OP here are saying is that the target's sim module has nothing to do with it. [ Spoiler ]
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Sep 17 2007, 01:22 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
looks to me like the OP actually *did* take into account that not everyone has hotsim capabilities by default. offhand, i'd say he was thinking (much like eidolon pointed out) there is a giant thread about the hotsim thing with most people agreeing it is possible to some extent (although the trodebeamofdeath is generally refuted by everyone except Frank) to hook someone else up to your sim module provided you control their PAN. anyways, it is a bit unfortunate that we don't really have much in the way of rules about psychotropic programs, but i can't say i'm surprised they wanted to wait until one of the advanced books to handle that subject. |
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Sep 17 2007, 01:45 AM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
And clearly you'd slot them with a persona fix that put in a bunch of code words that first made them stop unsafe matrix practices (so you get to keep your new slave) log into a matrix site you control and register their identity - so you can dial them up and issue orders. :D
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Sep 17 2007, 04:35 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
I'm sorry Eidolon, I should have guessed that people would still be smarting over the momhammer thread. I want to clear this up, though: I don't care how BTLs work. I don't care about DNI or ASIST or how to hack or what the difference between a trode net and a datajack is. I want to know what BTLs can do. I'm not looking to exploit the rules or dig up vaguely worded statements in the BBB. I have seen people on these boards suggest that BTLs can be used offensively by hackers, and I believe they're right: my question is, in what ways can be used? I want to know what creative things you can do with a Personafix BTL, not how to hack grandma's brain with a microwave transmitter the size of a car. Any chance of getting advice on this new and improved topic? |
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Sep 17 2007, 05:08 AM
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#19
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...basically a sim module that is incapable of interpreting hot ASIST will not transmit the deadlier signal even if it is subscribed to someone else's commlink rigged for Hot ASIST. It doesn't matter what tricks the Matrix Specialist uses, she cannot override the built in protections of the another person's Cold ASIST through programming or agents as the hardware is totally incompatible.
A good analogy is it's like watching an High Def programme on an old B & W telly. You still get the picture & sound but without the colour and enhanced details even though the network's transmitter is pumping out the HD signal. Furthermore, when the networks switch over to an all digital broadcast signal in the coming year, all analog sets will be incapable of interpreting the signal without physically installing a D to A converter on the set. As rules state (that I quoted and reiterated by Heartbane), you need to perform a physical (e.g. get out the tool kit) 1 hr extended Hardware test 10 to alter a sim module to accept Hot ASIST. So, as with the "MomHammer" (and in agreement with eidolon), the whole idea of randomly BTLing people though their commlinks is moot. |
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Sep 17 2007, 06:16 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
That's an interesting topic. I was thinking of using them them to assist in interrogation (more torture actually) by using mood chips, dream chips and persona-fixes to convince them to tell you what they want to know. So if you attach a trode net and install a persona-fix of someone submissive and weak willled along with a moodchip of terror (and possibly dream chips of really awful things happening from the victim PoV) this would seem likely to make someone a lot more willing to tell you what the pin code you want without you having to get blood all over the place. |
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Sep 17 2007, 12:53 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Absolutely. Actually even more so, because in the fluff, BTLs do so much more than Blackhammer. Hell, the BTL maguffins from Dreamchipper fucking taught you skills, and even killed you arbitrarily when turned off. But the reason that the argument is so intractible and nigh on to 300 posts is because at its heart the rules don't agree with the rules, the fluff doesn't agree with the rules, and the fluff doesn't agree with the fluff. Pretty much the gamemaster has to just make shit up off the top of his head whenever people try to do this because the scriptures are completely contradictory. The rules were written as if you can't do it, but there's no listed technical limitations to any of the equipment that would prevent you from doing it. Here's the condensed version (so you don't have to wade through 300 posts): In order for a BTL to affect someone, that person needs:
Now, let's go through them one by one, and talk pros and cons: 1. Can I get a DNI against my will?
Pro: The rules don't actually have any available way to turn off a DNI that someone is connecting to you, and as a physical device there's no reason to belive it doesn't affect others the same as it affects a willing target were it to be trained on them. Con (for doing it at range): The rules don't have any DNIs with a built-in signal rate higher than 0, so they can't go more than 3m per the rules. Further, trodes specifically say that they use ultrasound for something, which means that they are presumably not amenable to signal alteration (depending of course on what the hell you think "signals" are in Shadowrun). Pro (for the same thing): The nanoware DNI connections are apparently purely electrical, and specifically don't have to be affixed to the head. They also specifically can be used with a signal booster. Although the clear intent was to increase the range of signal from the user, there's no real reason that they couldn't be used to boost the signal range to the user. Con: The Fluff specifically says that the paranoid can simply not have a DNI and be completely protected from Matrix attacks (like BTLs or Blackhammers). Pro: The Fluff specifically includes multiple instances of killer viruses that hopped from completely segregated network to completely segregated network and were able to kill people. This happened in 2029, 2059, and 2065. While they were all done by NPCs, the capability is clearly there. Heck, if we believe the Adventures or Novels actually happened, this has occurred many more times. Of course, who cares? The fact is that many people have a DNI already. In fact, most people have skinlinked materials on their body from the get-go and you could hack your signal into those items and move on from there, obviating the entire question of whether a DNI can be induced at range. So let's move on to the others: 2. Can someone else train a Hot SIM module on me? If so, how far away can they be?
Pro: The SIM module is a wireless device that doesn't count against subscription limits and simply acts as a signal converter. It can be between your DNI and your brain (like an internal module) or between your DNI and the incoming signal (like an external module). There are no rolls involved, it just works. So from a technical standpoint, there is no topological difference between having "your" hot-modded SIM module sitting on the table broadcasting into your datajack (which definitely works) and "someone else's" SIM module held in a hand (despite the fact that the rules don't seem to consider this as a possibility). And of course, now you want to know what BTLs are capable of. Oh shit.
BTLs already in canon incapacitate or kill the "users" with no resistance roll. BTLs already in canon can brainwah people into believing that they are different people, behaving differently, knowing different things, and even giving people different physical skill-sets. And of course, there's no actual reason that the "user" has to be "willing". BTLs are just programs, and there are definitely examples in canon of them being used on people againstt their will. --- Long story short: the Matrix system is a contradictory mess and discussions about what it "says" go into vitriol territory really fast and discussions about what it should say go down just as fast. -Frank |
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Sep 17 2007, 01:30 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
Ignoring the highly experimental and unique nature of the Dreamchipper BTLs, treat BTL as the most horrific mind altering drug you can think of. The best or worst acid trip known to man.
All sensory input can be overridden or replaced. You can have an arm chewed off by army ants and enjoy it or the touch of a feather can be like acid dripping across your skin. Any emotion can be generated at neuron-frying levels. Brainwashing and interrogation is a straightforward hack. Admittedly, the brainwashing will likely reduce the victim's mental capacity but big deal. Psychological and brain damage are always possible, if not probable. Addiction, even to the nastier BTL, can occur as portions of the neural system begin to atrophy or rewire themselves in response to the stimuli. The counter is that with the exception of Mood chips, BTL can be an expensive process to create. Torture BTL requires putting a simrig on one or more people and then torturing them. Not many people volunteer for that. Brainwashing may not require actually brainwashing someone but it will require recording specific inputs and setting them to loop in mind damaging ways. Good brainscrubbers require a seriously twisted psychiatrist to assemble. |
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Sep 17 2007, 02:01 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I understand the OP.
He's saying... 1. He's got BTL he wants to pipe to someone. 2. He's got a Hot ASIST waiting to be used (that's not his ASIST module and is slaved to his network) 3. He's intending on connecting to the target's DNI and slaving it to his spare Hot ASIST. 4. Then he let's the brain fry commence. Honestly, it should work per normal hacking PANs rules. He's hacking into the target's PAN to take control of the DNI. Assuming he's successful, he then slaves it to his spare Hot ASIST. After that, he pipes in the BTL. At no point would the target's cold-sim module be required. Now whether or not BTL / Mom-hammer would work based on one-way transmission, I don't know. At rany rate, the general rule of thumb with transmissions (that you are expecting to receive a response from) is that if the transmission has a range of 10 meters, it's actually radiating out about 20 meters before it becomes noise. This is how you can be tracked by your RF emissions yet not detect anyone else. They only need a signal to come from you. You need your signal to come back to you. In other words, a flashlight lets you see around you. It also lets people much further away (out of flashlight range) see where *YOU* are. For purposes of this, I'd make sure that you were within transmission range minimum (duh!). At that range, you'd have some blind penalties simply because you have no way of knowing whether or not you were successful or needed to make adjustments. If you were close enough to receive the information back from what you were doing (which enables fine tune adjustments), then your penalties would be less or nonexistant. Signal rating will be paramount here. |
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Sep 17 2007, 02:04 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yeah, you've basically got the concept... but you're helping with the wrong rules (your post is more applicable to the "momhammer" thread) he's just trying to figure out what happens when you are interrogating someone and you insert a "intense pain whenever you tell a lie" BTL, or something like that. how would you handle what the BTL itself does? |
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Sep 17 2007, 02:08 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Oh that. I'd treat it like an Agony spell of the applicable rating and resolve it accordingly.
KISS works well in many areas of SR regardless of version. |
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