[X] My Assistant

[Dayhawk]

It appears that as long as you have a level 6 steath program you have no problems getting into a system undetected.

If you have a level 6 firewall and the hacker is hacking in on the fly, then from what I understand you only roll the Firewall value against the stealth program.

What am I missing?

Thanks

[Tarantula]

Actually, no. SR4, 221, "Each time you make a test to hack in, however, the target node also gets to make a free Analyze + Firewall (Stealth) Extended Test. If the node detects you—whether you hack in or not—an alert is triggered (see Intruder Alerts, p. 222)."

They get the analyze program as well, and its an extended test.

If you have 6 hacking, exploit, stealth, system, and response and are hacking a node with 6 firewall, system, and response then the tests go like this.

Hacking + Exploit = 12 dice for your exploit tests.

Firewall + System = 12 dice for the systems analyze tests.

Stealth = 6 for the threshold on the systems extended test to spot you.

Firewall = 6 for the threshold on your extended test to hack in.

First CT.
Hacker hacks, 12 dice average 4 hits, 4 !> 6 and so he isn't in yet.
System analyzes 12 dice average 4 hits 4 !>6 so the system hasn't spotted hacker yet.

Second CT.
Hacker hacks, 12 dice, 4 more hits, 8 > 6 and so he successfully hacks in.
System analyzers, 12 dice average 4 more hits, 8 > 6 so the system detects the hacker and raises an alert (+4 firewall) and may spawn IC/kick the hacker off etc.

[Kyoto Kid]

...keep in mind that all your programmes run at a rating only as good as your commlink's Response. The highest Response you can start with at chargen is 5 (due availability). So, even if you have programmes rated at 6, they will only function as if they were rating 5.

[kzt]

[Malachi]

[Gelare]

[Kyoto Kid]

[Moon-Hawk]

Well, your system is limited by your response, but AFAIK it's not completely clear when they say that programs are limited by system, whether they mean limited by the original system, or the system-as-limited-by-the-response.

[Aaron]

FAQ you.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Aaron]

The question was whether the effective program ratings are reduced by a System rating that has been reduced by a Response drop caused by too many programs running, unless I'm very much mistaken. The FAQ states that the System rating does not drop as a result of a loss of Response. The implication is that if the System rating does not decrease, and the effective ratings of running programs are limited by System, then the ratings of running programs do not decrease as a result of a decrease in Response because the System rating has not decreased. Savvy?

Note: this post is best read out loud and very fast.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I looked this up when I got home and in the Matrix chapter (forgot which page) it mentions that while programme rating is affected by System rating, System rating is limited by commlink's response rating. The only component that is not limited to Response is Firewall.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Dayhawk]

I just went back and have no idea how I missed that Analyze is part of the roll or that it is an extended test.

Most of the time my hacker can probe the target, but last game he was forced to hack on the fly, and it was the first time we used that roll.

That's what happens when your reading quicky through the rules during the game.

Hehe, he didn't bother to correct me either. Oh well.

Thanks for the example!

[Aaron]

Moon-Hawk,

Please read my post again, out loud. No, really, I mean it, because I suspect you may have missed something.

If it's still confusing, let me try an inductive example.

I've got a System 4, Response 3. So the System is effectively 3. My Rating 5 programs will run at Rating 3. I run three of them, so my Response drops to 2. However, the lowered Response does not affect the System, so it's still running at Rating 3. Since the System didn't drop, the program throttle didn't drop either, and so they're still running at Rating 3.

Am I more clear?

[Dayhawk]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Malachi]

@Moon-Hawk:

I'm with you. If you stick a System 4 on a Response 3 Commlink, then the effective System is 3 (limited by the "hard-coded" Response) and in that case I would rule (as a GM) that all program ratings are "capped" at 3.

[Moon-Hawk]

@Malachi: Right. I just wanted to say that an argument could be made for doing it the other way, and that the FAQ was addressing a completely different issue.

And we all agree that if you run lots of programs, your matrix initiative goes down and little else happens; no recursive awfulness.

Although, I will say that if all the programs are limited to System, and System is limited to Response, then System has virtually no function and is contributing very little to the game. Might as well drop it completely and replace all of it's uses with Response.

[otakusensei]

For GMs - Stick to the numbers and read the whole matrix section through a few times before starting a game.

For Players - Don't try to be so clever that you stop making sense and know that no matter how much money you spend on gear a technomancer can always thread and be better than you could even hope.

[deek]

Moon-Hawk:

I certainly see how RAW can be interpretted either way. System seems to effect the following:

Limiter for max program rating
Number of active subscriptions
Number of active programs run before Response degrades
Matrix Condition Monitor (MCM)

I think that you are correct, if System is capped by Repsonse, in all instances, then yes, System is an irrelevent stat.

But, seeing from the FAQ, that System does not drop because of Response degradation, and it holds static, I don't see why everything around it would degrade as well. I mean, when your Response goes down, does it drop your Matrix Condition Monitor? Number of active subscriptions? No, because the FAQ already says it won't affect the number of active programs you can run before Response degrades, so by that token, nothing else should be affected.

So, in an example, with a System 4, Response 3 commlink, you are effectively running a System 3 (as Malachi stated). So the max program rating is 3, active subscriptions 3, if you ran a 4th program Response drops and your MCM would have 10 boxes.

But, running a System 4, Response 4 commlink, but having 5 active programs on it, thus dropping response to 3, you have a different story. System is going to still be a 4...so you can still run programs at 4, have 4 active subscriptions and MCM would still have 10 boxes.

There is not a blanket rule, as you have to know whether Response just happens to be lower than System out of the box, or if it has been degraded due to program load.

[Buster]

[Moon-Hawk]

Well, in my defense I did say virtually no function. ;-)
I know it does a few things, but I still question whether System is "pulling its weight" in the rules, in terms of how much it really contributes to the game vs the extra bit of complexity it adds. Granted, it doesn't add much complexity, but the very limited list of things it is responsible for could easily be absorbed by other things.

[deek]

[Malachi]