 Hacking Skillwires, What can you do? |
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 Sep 22 2007, 04:16 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346  |
If you hack someone skillwires don't you effectively gain complete control over their entire body? The Skillwires override their muscular movement so you should be able to make a person do pretty much anything, even choke themselves to death. Now somewhere in either Augmentation or the core rule book it says that most of the megacorps put skillwires in their wageslaves and use skillsofts so they don't have to train people. This seems to imply to me that a large portion of the population can be controlled by a halfway decent hacker. The vast majority of wageslaves have fairly substandard comlinks and are thus fairly easy to hack. Have a wetwork job? Grab some guy with skillwires and a crap com, hack his com and take over his skillwires, have him carry out the actually killing and then off himself. Or what about the security guard who happens to have skillwires that you make handcuff himself to the door or choke himself to death. Or when you need a distraction at the mall? Nothing like making the guard steal what he is supposed to be protecting and then kill himself. |
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Sep 22 2007, 07:34 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
I'd say no. If skillwires could be used to make people into biodrones it would have been mentioned. You will note that actual equibment for making biodrones is far more expensive than skillwires indicating that there is more to it. Also I think it even says that you can't make biodrones out of metahumans (yet). So it seems pretty clear cut to me that skillwires do not allow you to take actual control of a person.
If you wanted to houserule metahuman biodrones-by-skillwire, I also think that you should at least consider what programs he has. You should only let the hacker perform actions that he had programs for. No strangling himself with a hacking program. Might not be able to walk or run without a running programs, no jumping without athletics. You should IMO be very restrictive to avoid overpowering skillwire hacking. |
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Sep 22 2007, 07:42 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
What about move by wire?
And what about if the hacker loads a 'pistols' activesoft and then instructs the active soft to kill that dude. It should work, because thats what the wire user does when he wants to shoot someone via his skillwires with an activesoft. |
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Sep 22 2007, 08:18 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
If it were that easy, people would stop implanting skillwires, unti they found a way to close off that loophole.
I dunno that the skillwire takes instructions from the user's commlink. If there's no connection between the commlink and the skillwire system, then no dice. My conception is that the user has to activate the skillwire, and it takes instructions only from the user's CNS, and there's an override for when the user runs into a situations that the skillsoft can't handle. Now, if you somehow gained access to a bunch of skillwires or skillsofts *before* they were implanted, then you could prepare a surprise. This is likely to require an "inside job". Edit the skillsofts before the users load them, with, say, a reflex such as "when you hear this particular sound, close your eyes and curl up into a ball." If you could insert that exploit into the "How to Handle a Weapon" skillsofts used by security personnell, then you get to disable those personnel as soon as they trigger the skillsoft by drawing their weapon. Or you edit the maintenance worker's skillsofts so that they'll do something that shuts down the building's power, with an appropriate triggering condition. Or, more subtle, if security and maintenance staff rely on skillwires for properly walking the perimeter of a specific site, then you edit the program to create a gap in their pattern; if you're smooth enough, they'll never know they were hacked - and thus, they might not know to close that particular loophole, so maybe it's still open next time. Maybe. If they're lazy or sloppy. Hmm... if Renraku makes skillsofts for Unarmed Combat and Infiltration and Con and so forth, perhaps they have "back door" overrides built in, and the Red Samurai have the trigger codes; don't use a Renraku skillsoft when you're penetrating a Renraku facility! Ah, paranoia. |
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Sep 22 2007, 08:34 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 6-January 06 Member No.: 8,137 |
Move by wire? Again the fact that Metahumans can't be biodrones indicates that, well they can't be biodrones, not even with move by wire. Back to skillwires. It again can't work perfectly because that would be a biodrone which is not possible by RAW. How and why does it not work perfectly? That is subject to debate. Perhaps the hacker can't use the skillwires properly because he can't see through the users eyes. Perhaps the user retains the use of other parts of his body and might resist by for example shutting his eyes (if we assume the hacker got access to the visual input from those) or using his left hand to fight the right, which would make aiming very difficult. Perhaps the man machine interface is to complicated to be handled properly by a hacking program. Perhaps the skillwires only handle some specialized movements while letting the host handle some other ones (eg. No matter how bad a shot you are, you can raise you arm into a rough firing position without the benefit of skillwires). Perhaps the skillwires don’t totally overrule normal muscle control, but relies on the fact that the user obviously won’t overrule the skillwires. Perhaps the rules just aren't perfectly consistent and thought out. The point remains that by RAW metahuman biodrones aren't possible. |
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Sep 22 2007, 09:08 AM
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#6
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
"Skillsofts don't kill people. People with skillsofts kill people." Skillsofts do little more than teach you a skill, both mentally and physically (if using activesofts with skillwires). They don't control you despite poorly written fluff text and you're not a robot when using one. Without a Skillwire Expert System, the skills they teach you are somewhat inferior to natural skills, but that's about the extent of the difference. That said, when you teach someone a skill, does that suddenly give you complete and total control over that person? No, of course it doesn't. You can try and influence them through other means, sure, but simply teaching them a skill grants you no special powers over them. It's exactly the same thing with skillwires and skillsofts. Upload them a Pistols skill if you like, but in the end the only thing you've done is teach them how to use Pistols for a short amount of time. And hell, if it's inferior to their natural skill with Pistols it's ignored completely if memory serves. |
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Sep 22 2007, 09:25 AM
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#7
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Someone will probably come in and complain about Doc's use of the words 'teach' and teaching' in his last post. He is not using them in the sense that they impart the knowledge to the character on a permanent basis, but rather that they grant the character's muscles the temporary knowledge of how to accomplish something.
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Sep 22 2007, 02:03 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
In addition to all that has been said already about why hacking skillwires does not allow you to control a person's actions, there's another point to keep in mind. Skillwires work through a large amount of pre-recorded ASIST, a process that takes time and lots of effort. Skillsofts are not burned on the fly. So while you can hack someone's skillwires, how are you feeding it commands? Even the simplest skill instructions would require lots of time and effort to craft, it's not as simple as revving up your Edit program.
If I were to walk into a motion capture studio today and have it at my full command, it doesn't mean I can make convincing special effects. |
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Sep 22 2007, 05:00 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
Yes. This is why I strongly suggest leaving yur move-by-wire system dependent upon physical contact with instruction sets. Sure it's convenient to wirelessly share the contents of activesofts between group members, and manually changing activesofts mid-combat is bullshit - but leaving a wireless command input available for your move-by-wire is just too dangerousif the enmies include decent hackers or technomancers. -Frank You can do it if a person has move-by-wire systems. As written though you should be able to do it with Skillwires. They override normal muscle controls. |
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Sep 23 2007, 12:20 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
But I thought you could manually change your skillsofts mid-combat. First thing I thought when I saw The Matrix was: "They totally stole that from Shadowrun!"
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Sep 23 2007, 12:33 AM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Frank has weird views. Move-By-Wire is no more vulnerable to "turn you into a robot" than Skillwires are. MBW just throws your body into a seizure then controls that seizure. Sort of the reverse of how you normally behave.
And you can change 'softs in the middle of combat. What you can't do is code custom skillsofts on the fly. Skillsofts aren't pilots or agents. They're... enhanced tutorsofts. When you're using that Pistols activesoft, it's not shooting the gun for you. You just know how to use that gun, but are 100% in complete and total control of your thoughts and actions while using it. You just use it as if you had known the skill your entire life. |
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Sep 23 2007, 03:17 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Frank is totally right though about puppeteering people with skillwires. The way the skillwires and especially the move by wire system are worded, they specifically say that the systems are overriding the user's normal actions...effectively turning the person into a biodrone.
By the fluff, there's no reason why a hacker couldn't just input a new sequence of actions. You might not be able to control them in real time, but you could fashion a set of commands beforehand and upload it to the victim. Sort of like (well, exactly like) the limitations of the Edit command. Biodrone systems are so expensive because they have that real time editing software and hardware systems built in. The only reason biodrone systems don't work in humanoids is because humanoids are made from magic pixie dust. |
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Sep 23 2007, 03:34 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
I'd say you can't hack skillwires and MBW systems simply because it would make no sense for them to be wireless enabled, other than to report stress or malfunctions. Seriously, if you had hardware in your body that put your brain into constant seizures as well as "overrid" your muscle movement when you slotted a chip, would you honestly make that available to be hacked? Yeah, the fluff says almost everything is wireless but I just can't believe that the creators of that equipment would make it vulnerable to hacking. It would be retarded.
And when the fluff says it "overrides your muscle movement" it doesn't mean you walk around like a machine and such, its just when you do an action based off a skillsoft, you aren't fluid and natural. You look stiff and robotic but you can still think. Sure, if that person had a Pistol skillsoft, and was hackable (which is implausable), then you could make them shoot themselves, but I would definitely give them a few chances to disconnect and resist. |
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Sep 23 2007, 03:51 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
Just make an Active soft that locks down all muscle movement. Real time control might not be possible but there is no reason that you couldn't paralyze a person with Skillwires. Yes he can most likely still talk but his arm's and legs don't work anymore. As for hacking skillwires, if they are connected to a person's comlink you just need to hack the comlink first. And if they aren't connected then how exactly are you uploading a skillsoft to the system? Move-By-Wire systems allow real time, complete control of the person. They put the person into continuous seizure and an expert system controls all movement (your brain tells the expert what to do and then the expert lets your body do it).
Just disabling the expert system would actually take out anyone with a Move-by-Wire system. They would experience a continuous seizure that doesn't end. It would most likely kill them. Skillwires are cool but don't keep them connected to your pan, a datajack is a good idea. |
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Sep 23 2007, 03:55 PM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
The one-line description of skillwire function in SR4 is pretty misleading. Expect more on this soon.
But, really, skillwires override muscle memory more than muscle movement. Biodrone setups, on the other hand, really do override muscle movement. |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:01 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
Then can you make muscles "forget" how to move? You can't walk because your muscles don't remember how, you can't lift your arm because your muscles forgot how, etc. Pretty much all motor function is learned, not instinctive. So just have the activesoft make their muscles "forget" how to walk and they are effectively a newborn. |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:04 PM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yes, you can definitely interfere with a person's motor activity if you hack their skillwires. But that's different than puppeting them.
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Sep 23 2007, 04:05 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
So even though I can't puppet the wageslave I can paralyze him? Hmm, wonder how many guards have Skillwires.
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Sep 23 2007, 04:21 PM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
They'd also need to be wireless-enabled skillwires.
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Sep 23 2007, 04:27 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
Yes but if a person doesn't have a datajack then don't they have to connect to their comlink so that they can upload skillsofts to the skillwires? |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:40 PM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Sure, if they don't have a datajack.
I would hope that if you equip your security personnel with wireless skillwire systems, you also equip them with some pretty secure commlinks. |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:45 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Skillwires give ability and knowledge of things unknown to the recipient. They do not override all motor function of the brain. They give talent and nothing more. The recipient then with this talent, acts accordingly to the talent he has received. The skillwires do not all of the sudden make him a machine without control and choice. He still chooses how to act, move, think, etc. Thusly, hacking skillwires will not give the hacker complete control of his victims. Skillwires work almost exactly as they do in the matrix when Trinity asks for the helicopter piloting program. Trinity receives the skills and knowledge to fly a helicopter just as if she knew all of it herself. Hacking skillwires allows no more control than if one were able to hack a victims knowledge and skills. The only thing hacking skillwires might accomplish is being able to do is render them useless. The only possible way a hacker could possibly be able to control another with hacking is through cyber limbs. Even then, we aren't talking full control of someones body. Any part of the body still directly controlled/interfaced by ones brain is not hackable. I wouldn't say cyberlimbs are directly controlled/interfaced by the brain. They have to go through a DNI for that, therefore it is by proxy.
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Sep 23 2007, 04:52 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 20-September 07 Member No.: 13,346 |
And skillwires say that they override muscle movement. One of the developers for SR4 says that they override muscle memory. If the text isn't a misprint then you should be able to real time drone control a target. If the developer is correct then you can't make them do whatever you want but you can paralyze them with a command. Take control of a guys skilwires, upload the paralyze activesoft, encrypt his skillwire system, and turn off wireless. That guy falls down and can't move and unless he is a competent hacker with a good Decrypt program he cant' tell his Skillwires to stop. |
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Sep 23 2007, 04:57 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
That's pretty close to how I interpret the situation. My thought is that since you cannot "jump in", you cannot really properly control them. Just because you can override their muscles doesn't mean you have the proper equipment to make the person do anything but fall over, since after all, without having access to their senses you're basically stuck with no way to properly interface with what amounts to the world's most complicated RC car (and since you don't have access to their mind itself, I would think they'd be fighting you every step of the way). So unless you have a "walk around" skillsoft handy, I just don't see it being good for much other than making someone helpless (which is pretty damn sweet, actually). To actually puppet someone, I think you'd be a lot better off trying to figure out a way to get them under the influence of a preset script, preferably in the form of a PersonaFix BTL program, since that way you use trickery to get the victim to go along with the plan by manipulating how they perceive themselves and their enviroment as well as granting them new behavior patterns; that way you get to bypass the whole messy business of having to walk the person through an action step by tedious step. Still wouldn't be -that- useful, however; I doubt the program would be able to accomplish much outside of a very limited context. |
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Sep 23 2007, 05:00 PM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
It's not the first time I've had an issue with some of the wording in SR4 Core. I believe they had separate writers on the Matrix chapter and the Gear chapter, which led to some crazy confusion between the two on how things should work and how they were described. In some cases, it appears things were changed in one chapter and not completely updated in the other. But I wasn't a writer on SR4 Core, I only came into it during playtesting.
But yeah, that seems like a way you could incapacitate a guard. There are plenty of other ways in the game to incapacitate guards also. |
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