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> New Magical Knack: Lucky Bastard, Soliciting feedback and ideas
blakkie
post Sep 22 2007, 10:05 AM
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A wacky idea. Just 'cause.

Alterante names: Lady Luck, Slim Chance, MY HALO (Magically Yoked, Horseshoe Augmented Lower Orfice), or suggest something yourself

Cost: What do you think? I was thinking maybe 10 BP.

What it does:
At moments of impending and seemingly certain doom you are saved, if only a temporary reprive, by some odd and unexplained effect or perhaps an apparent coincidence that is . What has, in truth, happened is some magical spell or power has intervined. The nature of the magic effect can, and if possible does, vary from incident to incident. It tends not to be readily apparent what exactly happened but typically bystanders, and perhaps even the subject, are left scratching their head and uttering "WTF?" or "there is something you don't see every day" or "you lucky bastard!"

Thaumaturgy:
Lucky Bastards are quite the magical enigma. Because of the shifting and adhoc nature of the effects this is a notoriously difficult to study magical effect.

Further the Knack seems to actively thwarts attempts to quantify. It has never been successfully replicated in a controlled environment, even to the point where there has been deaths in subjects suspected of being under it's protection that were put into danger as part of the test. As well the subject themselves seem to abdicate protection if they count on the safety net. Fickle indeed!

The subject of the knack does not appear have a magical aura and the knack has never been observed in a Magician, Adept, or Mystic. Nor has it been seen in a Technomancer, though this might merely be due to a coincidental lack of known intersection in two very tiny groups. Groups which both currently have a large percentage of members that are unaware of their status.

Because of the above it has been often postulated that the effect is actually caused by a spirit, possibly free spirit, that is acting as a secret guardian for the subject. However muddying the waters is at least one reliable reported case of an event in a particularly polluted sector of Glow City where the background count would have made intervention by all by a domain spirit extremely difficult. There have also been reports though of possesors of the Knack losing it after 'ware implants, which does not rule out spirits but does suggest the subject themselves does have some linked magical property.

Adding to this theory there have been a few cases where it appears that a subject with thaumaturgical knowledge demonstrated some ability to Counterspelling and even Banishing. However they were not able to bring full conscious control over these, interferring with baneful and beneficial spells and bindings alike.

There has never been a reported case of direct astral observation of the magic. There have been a handful of cases where an otherwise unexplained astral signature has been observed following a suspected event. However very little information has been gleaned from these observations.

When:
It is similarly to permanent expenditure of Edge to avoid certain death, although it can also be triggered with other dire conditions such facing arrest for a serious crime with damning evidence. Normally at least some conciquences are faced, such as with the above example the arrest may still occur but on the way to incarceration an accident occurs that allows the Lucky Bastard to escape.

Game/Dice Mechanics:
The player chooses when they attempt to invoke this. They must succeed at an Edge(2) to trigger it. Edge cannot be used in any way for extra dice for this roll. If the TN 2 is not met the Knack fails to act and it does NOT count as a usage of the Knack.

The possesor of the Knack gains a number of 'phantom' Magic points. The number of points is 1d6 divided by 2, round up. It can be a secret number rolled and tracked by the GM. It can never be increased nor can the character Initiate and is subject to normal effects of Essense lose. If Magic drops to 0 the character loses use of the knack any any Magic based skills.

Whatever magic occurs it will do so in a way that it is NOT directly observed on the astral. Any assensing of the signature following the event is at +3 to the TN and the signiture dissipates at an accelarated rate so that within seconds, at most 1 minute, it has faded to non-detectable against the background.

The magical effect is of whatever level that is required to produce the effect needed, although effect choice should be made with minimizing the magical power needed as a goal. It can occur in spite of even the most extreme background count or mana warp, yes even in orbit, but if feasible the magic will occur outside and the effect travel to the location of need via physical means.

The character can learn Counterspelling and Banishing. However they can only use the automatic versions of these. Counterspelling as per the book except that the character need not be aware of spell and will remain ignorant of it's occurance barring some other evidence.

Banishing is handled similarly. It is rolled without Magic dice when in the presense of someone attempting Summoning or Binding. Successes rolled are subtracted from the Summoning/Binding Successes. No drain is incured. If the character knows either of these skills they are rolled every possible use, they have no ability to turn this off. Even if unconscious!

How often:
This happens at most once per "Adventure". Where adventure is an metagame grouping of 2 or more related gaming sessions. Alternatively the GM and player may agree upon other guidelines for refresh. In any event the refresh rate should be no faster than the rate of full refresh of Edge.
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blakkie
post Sep 22 2007, 10:31 AM
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I had also considered striking the "How Often" section entirely and replacing the first paragraph of "Game/Dice Mechanics" with:

The GM chooses when/if to trigger this knack. Be nice, be fair, be frugal, but most of all be dramatic and remember to ROCK!
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tisoz
post Sep 22 2007, 11:50 AM
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Wow! For someone who hates pre-SR4 editions, you manage to really embrace the introduction of new game concepts and rules bloat for a single knack. Phantom Magic, 1D6/2, +3TN, etcetera. Keep it in the SR4 spirit and leave it up to GM discretion, after all, who has a dice pool large enough to likely trigger an Edge(Threshold 2) test?

Or redefine HoG Edge use so that the point is not burned but refreshes intermittently.
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blakkie
post Sep 22 2007, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Sep 22 2007, 05:50 AM)
Wow!  For someone who hates pre-SR4 editions, you manage to really embrace the introduction of new game concepts and rules bloat for a single knack.

LOL I know it's way, way too long. It is a first pass. That post is pretty much train of thought poured out on the keyboard. Notice how I'm already chiselling away at it in the second post. Yes, why I put it up here. To get some help slashing and chiseling. So thanks for the post. 8)

Also the largest selection Thaumaturgy is more a description of what I'm aiming at. Eventually when the rules get fine tuned to imply all that I can cut it down if not nearly eliminate it and meld it in elsewhere.

So what about the Counterspelling/Banishing? Too much? Should I just bring it down to one sentence and make it a closer to normal rules? Just cut it altogether? How do you think that would impact the cost? I'd like to see the Counterspelling in but I think the more I look at it on the screen the more I think it's just not worth the bother to have it there. It is too much clutter.

QUOTE
Phantom Magic, 1D6/2, +3TN, etcetera.

I wanted to emphasis the "people that don't know they have it, ever" without forcing people to metagame never getting implants. Maybe the answer is that Essense loss doesn't cost you the Knack! Or until you drop below Essense of 1? Hrmmm, nah still to much clutter, just have it operate like the background count and the overall theme of it. Just as strong as it needs to be to always be there but no stronger.
QUOTE
Keep it in the SR4 spirit and leave it up to GM discretion, after all, who has a dice pool large enough to likely trigger an Edge(Threshold 2) test?

Lucky people! That's the point, TN 2 isn't that hard to hit but it's not easy either when you are throwing down only 3 or 4 dice. :) Incidentally the one thing about SR4 that bugs me the most is the proliferation of crutching "leave it up to the GM" in the rules. On the road to enlightenment but not quite there yet. ;)
QUOTE
Or redefine HoG Edge use so that the point is not burned but refreshes intermittently.

I actually tried hard to give it a different flavour and to avoid making it another HoG or Edge. Otherwise, hey, why not make it super simple as an Adept Power that is a magical Attribute bonus for the one that hasn't got one yet; Edge. ;) I'm even think of killing that reference to HoG. With more disgressionary control I might allow it to be used more as a "fortuitous" luck as well to set it apart.
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Tarantula
post Sep 22 2007, 08:21 PM
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Honestly, its seems exactly like HOG to me. With a test to use it successfully.
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Buster
post Sep 22 2007, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
What it does:
At moments of impending and seemingly certain doom you are saved, if only a temporary reprive, by some odd and unexplained effect or perhaps an apparent coincidence that is . What has, in truth, happened is some magical spell or power has intervined. The nature of the magic effect can, and if possible does, vary from incident to incident. It tends not to be readily apparent what exactly happened but typically bystanders, and perhaps even the subject, are left scratching their head and uttering "WTF?" or "there is something you don't see every day" or "you lucky bastard!"

Wait, didn't you just describe Edge? Check out the rules for burning Edge points.

The scene in Snatch where Boris the Bulletdodger dies is a perfect description of someone with max Edge burning them all up one after another.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 23 2007, 12:08 AM
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Yeah, but burning Edge isn't a positive quality only costing you about 10 BP that refreshes for free every "adventure." So, clearly, it's not a feeble attempt to get free HoGs or anything so much as a truly balanced, well-thought out, and not-overpowered suggestion for a new trait. I mean, the word count alone should be testimony to that.
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blakkie
post Sep 23 2007, 04:40 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 22 2007, 02:21 PM)
Honestly, its seems exactly like HOG to me.  With a test to use it successfully.

That is a pretty damn important difference. ;) But like I already said I'm trying to figure out how to put more distance between it and HoG and still keep the Lucky Bastard and magic angle. I don't want it to be a duplication of HoG because that's: 1) boring as it doesn't add much for the extra rules/work 2) hard to keep the BP cost down and still have it priced appropriately.
QUOTE
Wait, didn't you just describe Edge? Check out the rules for burning Edge points.

Not exactly. I'm trying to more personify luck than Edge is, basing it solidly in magic. That's behind taking player control away from it; unreliable triggering (probably should have been failured attempt still counts as a use knack), full out GM control of the trigger, and the lack of control of Counterspelling/Banishing. The more I look at it the less room there is for that later pair....unless maybe I look at structuring the knack around just those and don't use Skill advancement on it. Make it sort of like an area version of the Quality with the same sort of benefits and pitfalls but exagerated because it'll screw with your team's functioning. However that's kinda on the antisocial side.

Or maybe there is a different angle entirely that I'm missing here. I didn't shotgun enough out there to find what I'm looking for. Anyone with thoughts, semiformed or less is fine, fire it off as I'm drawing a blank at the moment on how to overcome the Magic Beans Effect where it is tough to do 'luck' in magic without just creating some sort of extra randomizer mechanic that more than anything gets in the way.

EDIT: Hrmm, maybe the knack just influences how the regular HoG and other permanent Edge burning manifests? So the Edge burning rules still function the same except the source of the in-game effects are always magic based. Maybe even it even influences how normal Edge use manifests? Hrmm, that might be something.



p.s. Doc Funk, could you please either post something remotely constructive or fuck off back under a rock somewhere. I'm fine with either of those, thanks!
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Zhan Shi
post Sep 23 2007, 05:12 AM
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I agree with Buster. You'd probably be better off just using Edge, using your own house rules to achieve the effect you're looking for.


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blakkie
post Sep 23 2007, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Sep 22 2007, 11:12 PM)
I agree with Buster.  You'd probably be better off just using Edge, using your own house rules to achieve the effect you're looking for.

Well, um, that's what all of this is. ;) Using Edge, always expected the character to continue to use Edge. And then some other house rules to achieve an effect of lucky via magic. But the question is what house rules that distance it from Edge. Or just use the house rule in combination with the Edge rules as I tossed out there in the EDIT of my last post. But that needs a little pizzaz to make it work for me. Not so much power (though mechanically it is fairly weak for 10BP, maybe even 5BP) but some flair.

Try think of the question of how to distance combat spells from mundane tech weapons. Where a character can use a elemental fire spell to put the burn on an opponet but the same character could light the opponent with a flamethrower (well, assuming one is stated out...so I guess make that eletrical elemental spell and a Taser).
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tisoz
post Sep 23 2007, 07:28 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 22 2007, 12:54 PM)
QUOTE
Keep it in the SR4 spirit and leave it up to GM discretion, after all, who has a dice pool large enough to likely trigger an Edge(Threshold 2) test?

Lucky people! That's the point, TN 2 isn't that hard to hit but it's not easy either when you are throwing down only 3 or 4 dice. :)

My misunderstanding. TN2 is much easier than Threshold(2).

I would suggest seperating the lucky part from the automatic banishing/counterspelling part, making two or three qualities out of the proposal and adjust the cost.
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blakkie
post Sep 23 2007, 07:43 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Sep 23 2007, 01:28 AM)
My misunderstanding.  TN2 is much easier than Threshold(2).

No, I meant Threshhold 2. Still switching my head back to the proper gaming system to get the jargon down. :( I actually keep wanting to refer to it as Ob (Obstacle) as the most recent d6 dice pool game I played was Burning Wheel (set in Victorian England with my own Existential Horror toned Emotional magic system graphed in) and I'm also trying to get a handle on the Harn rules because I'm playing in a weekly game of that right now too.

But I think I've pretty much scrapped the idea of rolling to see if it happens. My gut is screaming too much random dice and mucking about trying to bring across the right tone.
QUOTE
I would suggest seperating the lucky part from the automatic banishing/counterspelling part, making two or three qualities out of the proposal and adjust the cost.

Agreed. Too much to price properly and the pieces just aren't fitting together tight enough to call it inseparable. Clear sign they belong in different Qualities.
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blakkie
post Sep 24 2007, 10:19 PM
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Redo time, maybe even including the name? This is much closer to a mage but without being a mage. No, there isn't anything in past SR canon like this...I think. But maybe because they haven't been noticed. ;)

Cost: 15BP

- Can learn magic skills except those in the Summoning Group.
- No Magic Attribute.
- Use Edge in place of Magic.
- Any roll that would normally use Magic as part of the pool costs the 1 use of Edge. The roll is open-ended and cannot be further augmented by Edge.
- Essense loss penalizes Edge.
- Can use foci, including Power foci. The extra dice from the Power foci are only added when Edge is being used in place of Magic, not for regular uses of Edge.
- Edge still capped as per normal.
- Assensing detects as per Technomancers. Detection reveals something curious but likely require an obscure Knowledge test to understand what is up.
- Can initiate. No group. No reduced cost. Maximum Grade limited by Edge. Grade does not increase upper limit of Edge.
- Permanent burn of Edge typically manifests as a magical effect.
- Drain as per normal.
- Still required to buy spells/skills with BP/karma to use them. Character may not be aware of their abilities though. Might just think they are 'lucky'.


Upsides:
- Don't have to buy up Magic Attribute. This is a huge advantage, it is why the BP is so high even for just an aspected mage.
- Low profile aura without Initiation.
Downsides:
- Aspected to Spellcasting (my gut says Summoning would be too powerful, what do you think?)
- Will go through Edge quickly if the casting gets used a lot. How much an issue this probably depends on how fast Edge refreshes in your game. But in any event you still can't dump in more Edge dice when casting, so you are going to come up short compared to "real" sorcerers, and you won't have that Edge there for other uses if you start casting.
- Capped casting Atttribute instead of open-ended progression of Magic Attribute.
- Limited maximum number of Grades.
- Any Essense loss is felt twice as hard as it is impacts beyond just casting ability. This is important as it precludes the SR equivalent to a Tank Mage.
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Lagomorph
post Sep 24 2007, 10:50 PM
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This redux is quite a bit more interesting. It seems that what you've got here is pretty much a "wild mage" casting style, based on dumb random luck.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Drain as per normal." does that mean they'd pick a non edge attribute to drain off of?

Considering how high you can buy up edge attribute, I'd say this could actually be a 20-30 point cost since you don't have to buy up Magic. That would help prevent a "Human-Edge 8-Lucky+Lucky Magic" combo.

I don't see summoning being to powerful, it would be just as lucky that a random water spirit happens by and puts out the fire. Maybe limit spirits to 1 service.
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blakkie
post Sep 24 2007, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Sep 24 2007, 04:50 PM)
This redux is quite a bit more interesting.

Thanks. I'm feeling a lot better about it too.
QUOTE
I'm not sure what you meant by "Drain as per normal." does that mean they'd pick a non edge attribute to drain off of?

The drain is calculated as per normal except that you compare the Force to Edge instead of Magic to determine if it is Stun or Physical. Resisting is still done by Willpower + Int/Log/Cha (pick one)

I think I also missed stating explicitly in there that the maximum Force is 2*Edge instead of 2*Magic.
QUOTE
Considering how high you can buy up edge attribute, I'd say this could actually be a 20-30 point cost since you don't have to buy up Magic. That would help prevent a "Human-Edge 8-Lucky+Lucky Magic" combo.

I gave some thought to this. But it costs you +35BP to get that that last point of Edge of 7 (8 if you are Human), or at least +20BP to be one short but have the potential for that last step. That's really steep. And it isn't going anywhere, ever. Also yes, you can max out Edge and "Magic" (sans Lucky) only paying +15BP once for the for the last step. But you can never enhance your casting with Edge (this means no avoiding casting glitches :eek: ) and every cast drops your Edge a point. That's very little casting compared to game play I've seen from mages.

Of course it would have to be played to see exactly how it works in action. Are you volunteering to make a character too see what it looks like? ;) Go ahead, I'm curious what you'll do with it.
QUOTE
I don't see summoning being to powerful, it would be just as lucky that a random water spirit happens by and puts out the fire. Maybe limit spirits to 1 service.

Limiting it to one service might do it. Another part of the problem I see with spirits is that it gets away from this idea of "lucky but doesn't know it". Although limiting it to just 1 service could help there too. Hrmmm.
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Fortune
post Sep 25 2007, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 25 2007, 08:19 AM)
- Can use foci, including Power foci. Power foci do NOT increase Edge directly though.

You do know that Power Foci don't increase the Magic Attribute in SR4, don't you?
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blakkie
post Sep 25 2007, 12:50 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 25 2007, 08:19 AM)
- Can use foci, including Power foci. Power foci do NOT increase Edge directly though.

You do know that Power Foci don't increase the Magic Attribute in SR4, don't you?

That is there just to make sure there wasn't any confusion about whether or not a Power focus added extra dice when you used Edge to complement mandane actions like Dodge and so on. ;)
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Fortune
post Sep 25 2007, 12:51 AM
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That's cool. Just checking, 'cause I've seen some confusion on it in the past. :)
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blakkie
post Sep 25 2007, 01:08 AM
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It was a poor wording choice on my part. I've reworded it to something clearer.
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