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> Unbalanced cyberlimb attributes, let's get this settled once and for all
Moon-Hawk
post Sep 24 2007, 03:05 PM
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Maybe this has been answered and I'm being dense, but I want to get this answered once and for all, and that's probably going to require at least a semi-official answer.
There's nothing in the errata 1.5 or the current FAQ, to my knowledge. Previously, the answer has always been "Wait for Augmentation". Well, I've read Augmentation and I'm still confused.

The Critical George example on SR4 pg 335 is confusing to me.
How many areas are figured into the full-body calculations? 4 (one for each limb), 5 (including the torso), or 6 (including the skull as well)???
Critical George seems to imply that you take all the limbs and then add the body's natural value as "one limb" into the calculation, regardless of how much meat that actually represents. That method is obviously absurd, since by that method Critical George currently has an average Body of 4, but if he were to get his right arm and right leg replaced with cyberlimbs which both had a Body of 3 (his existing natural stat, and thus the body rating of the meat in those limbs), suddenly his overall average Body rating would drop to 3. Using that method, it's also possible to construct examples where someone can improve the stat in a limb and still have their overall stat drop, so it seems like the only sane way to handle it is to count every limb individually (no matter how many are cyber or meat) and take the average, but there are still problems. Do I really need to worry about the strength rating of my head? Ever? Nevermind that some of these limbs simply don't have the capacity to match high stats (although that problem has gotten MUCH better with customized limbs, you still can't make a cyborg with much higher-than-unaugmented-max because of the limitations of the skull, WTF?). What about partial limbs? Maybe we just need a semi-official account for exactly what percent of the body's performance is contributed by each limb.

So can we please get a clear and final answer on how unbalanced attributes in multiple limbs are to be handled?
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Buster
post Sep 24 2007, 04:02 PM
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It boils down to: if you have a natural Body 6 and you buy an off the shelf cyberlimb that's only Body 3, yes, your average Body will drop. That's what you get for buying flimsy merchandise. Buying a custom cyberlimb (Augmentation) and maxing it's Body to 6 is not expensive and does not cost any more essence or any more capacity. That's Augmentation's fix for the average cybered attribute problem.
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 24 2007, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 24 2007, 11:02 AM)
It boils down to: if you have a natural Body 6 and you buy an off the shelf cyberlimb that's only Body 3, yes, your average Body will drop.  That's what you get for buying flimsy merchandise.  Buying a custom cyberlimb (Augmentation) and maxing it's Body to 6 is not expensive and does not cost any more essence or any more capacity.  That's Augmentation's fix for the average cybered attribute problem.

That's not a fix at all.
So what does your Body drop to? According to Critical George it drops to 4. (6+3)/2=4.5 rounds down to 4.
If you count all six "limbs" it only drops to 5.
Plus, even with customized limbs you can't possibly get a cyberskull, not even an obvious one, that can match Body 7, Agility 9, Strength 9, which is a highly achievable combination for a combat character. (the example here is human) Fully customized and completely crammed with attribute boosters can't possibly match this. The street sam is crippled by the agility and strength of his skull.
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Buster
post Sep 24 2007, 04:17 PM
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Are you sure a cyberskull counts for reducing/increasing average agi and str? I thought it was just the arms, legs, and torso.
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Jaid
post Sep 24 2007, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
Are you sure a cyberskull counts for reducing/increasing average agi and str? I thought it was just the arms, legs, and torso.

the way the rules are written, it affects the overall attributes.

of course, i personally would rule that the skull doesn't apply to most tests involving those attributes (which also follows the rules) but for things like damage resistance you would technically add in the skull, if i'm not mistaken.

i agree with Moon-hawk... a 'limb' should count as 1 limb, whether it's meat or cyber (i also think, as i said above, that the cyberskull should just not be counted for attributes 90% of the time)
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 24 2007, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
Are you sure a cyberskull counts for reducing/increasing average agi and str? I thought it was just the arms, legs, and torso.

Aha! Precisely my question! Maybe the skull doesn't count. But to my knowledge nothing in any book states that the torso counts but the skull doesn't. Critical George at least makes it clear that we're supposed to count the torso. I'm willing to accept the critical importance of torso agility, but the skull is giving me headaches, and if it's not supposed to count, someone needs to say so, at least in a semi-official capacity until it can work its way into FAQ or errata.
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 24 2007, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
but for things like damage resistance you would technically add in the skull, if i'm not mistaken.

I could live with that, too. I could handle the skull being figured into body calculations, but not into strength and agility. Then, at least you could get a synthetic cyberskull with a Body of 8, or max out an obvious one. That would mean dividing Body by 6 and the other two by 5 when making calculations, but I can handle that.
I just need to know.
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Jaid
post Sep 24 2007, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 24 2007, 11:22 AM)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 24 2007, 11:17 AM)
Are you sure a cyberskull counts for reducing/increasing average agi and str?  I thought it was just the arms, legs, and torso.

Aha! Precisely my question! Maybe the skull doesn't count. But to my knowledge nothing in any book states that the torso counts but the skull doesn't. Critical George at least makes it clear that we're supposed to count the torso. I'm willing to accept the critical importance of torso agility, but the skull is giving me headaches, and if it's not supposed to count, someone needs to say so, at least in a semi-official capacity until it can work its way into FAQ or errata.

if a given test does not involve a given 'limb' then the rules say that limb is not calculated in for the purposes of that test.

i can think of very few tests where the skull would be needed (basically only the body attribute for damage resistance tests, really), and as such a GM would be entirely within reason to exclude the skull most of the time. this is, however, subject to GM approval (since the decision of what limbs are used in the test is, after all, up to the GM)

[edit] figured i'd quote some relevant rules text for you:
QUOTE (SR4 @ page 335)
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down). If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.

[/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Sep 24 2007, 04:31 PM
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Buster
post Sep 24 2007, 04:37 PM
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I would just use cyberlimbs and cybertorso (but not cyberskull) in calculating average agi, str, and body. I can't imagine the skull adds or subtracts anything from the average body and certainly not to agi or str. If you're trying to tow a bus with your teeth or something weird like that, then the cyberskull might need to be calculated in, but that's a pretty rare corner case.

EDIT: Jaid's edit answers it perfectly.

As to wanting an official errata, feel free to hold your breath, but the last errata was posted nearly 2 years ago and there doesn't look like there's going to be one any time soon. Feel free to spam the developers, maybe they can make it happen before the sixth world arrives. :D
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 24 2007, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
EDIT: Jaid's edit answers it perfectly.

And yet, even so, you two seem to disagree on whether the head should be included in damage resistance.
QUOTE (Buster)
I can't imagine the skull adds or subtracts anything from the average body
QUOTE (Jaid)
basically only the body attribute for damage resistance tests, really
Wouldn't it be great if we could get an official answer and never have to wonder about this ever again?
I'm not really expecting an update to the errata anytime soon, but there's been plenty of times when a writer has chimed in to say, "Oh yeah, I meant for it to work like this."
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 24 2007, 06:09 PM
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There was an at least semi-official answer (I think from customer service or maybe a letter to Rob... whatever, my memory sucks) a few weeks ago when the subject came up, and the answer was that a cyberskull doesn't apply to such calculations. Ignore the skull and only the varied stats on the torso and four limbs (5 total) are used.

And yes, if you have a cyberarm that's more vulnerable to damage than the rest of you, that makes you more vulnerable to damage. Weakest link in the chain and all that. It's an abstraction, just like everything else.

I mean, putting 2 points of armor on a cyberlimb gives you 2 points of overall armor, but that rarely gets angry responses. Does that mean abstractions are only okay if you get a bonus out of it, but not a penalty?
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 24 2007, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
There was an at least semi-official answer (I think from customer service or maybe a letter to Rob... whatever, my memory sucks) a few weeks ago when the subject came up, and the answer was that a cyberskull doesn't apply to such calculations. Ignore the skull and only the varied stats on the torso and four limbs (5 total) are used.

Alright, excellent. That's all I was looking for. Thanks.
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
And yes, if you have a cyberarm that's more vulnerable to damage than the rest of you, that makes you more vulnerable to damage. Weakest link in the chain and all that. It's an abstraction, just like everything else.

Obviously, if you add a weaker arm your body goes down. I don't think anyone's complaining about that. The problem with the Critical George method is, depending on the stats involved you can actually add a limb that's stronger and have your overall stats go down, and that's messed up. Stupid Critical George.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 24 2007, 09:58 PM
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A boosted limb should never lower your overall average in any examples. At most, your overall effect is unchanged. The problem with the book example is that people assume (because the book never says otherwise) that the skull is a limb, and somehow ignore it in the calculations. That results in some really rare cases of getting a lower average since you're adding up five but dividing by six. Even when unaugmented. For example (3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3) / 6 = 2.5. Get rid of that sixth "limb" and it works just fine.
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Jaid
post Sep 24 2007, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
A boosted limb should never lower your overall average in any examples. At most, your overall effect is unchanged. The problem with the book example is that people assume (because the book never says otherwise) that the skull is a limb, and somehow ignore it in the calculations. That results in some really rare cases of getting a lower average since you're adding up five but dividing by six. Even when unaugmented. For example (3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3) / 6 = 2.5. Get rid of that sixth "limb" and it works just fine.

no, the problem is that all of your meat limbs are (according to the example) treated as one limb.

that is, if you have one cyberarm with strength 3, and one meat arm with strength 7, the example in the book would say you have strength 5 (that is, 3 + 7 = 10, divide by 2 for the average is 5), whereas using the 6 (or, more realistically, 5) different limbs with having the meat limbs at strength 5 and the cybered limb at strength 3 gives you (7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 3 = 31, divide by 5 = 6.2 which rounds to 6) a strength score of 6, which is what i think most of us would agree makes the most sense.

that's where the problem is with the book example.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 24 2007, 11:08 PM
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The book example can eat me.
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Tarantula
post Sep 24 2007, 11:23 PM
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But if hes eating you, do you use the strength of just his skull? Or do you use the averaged strength? If the averaged strength, is it the average of 5 (body + limbs) or 6 (body + skull + limbs)?
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 24 2007, 11:27 PM
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I'm a full-body meal.
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Fortune
post Sep 24 2007, 11:57 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I'm a full-body meal.

Soylent Funk!
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Buster
post Sep 25 2007, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 24 2007, 11:37 AM)
EDIT: Jaid's edit answers it perfectly.

And yet, even so, you two seem to disagree on whether the head should be included in damage resistance.
QUOTE (Buster)
I can't imagine the skull adds or subtracts anything from the average body
QUOTE (Jaid)
basically only the body attribute for damage resistance tests, really
Wouldn't it be great if we could get an official answer and never have to wonder about this ever again?
I'm not really expecting an update to the errata anytime soon, but there's been plenty of times when a writer has chimed in to say, "Oh yeah, I meant for it to work like this."

What are you bitching at me for? Why don't you do something useful like spamming Synner to update the errata that you're so desperate to get.
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Jaid
post Sep 25 2007, 02:41 AM
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QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 24 2007, 11:47 AM)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 24 2007, 11:37 AM)
EDIT: Jaid's edit answers it perfectly.

And yet, even so, you two seem to disagree on whether the head should be included in damage resistance.
QUOTE (Buster)
I can't imagine the skull adds or subtracts anything from the average body
QUOTE (Jaid)
basically only the body attribute for damage resistance tests, really
Wouldn't it be great if we could get an official answer and never have to wonder about this ever again?
I'm not really expecting an update to the errata anytime soon, but there's been plenty of times when a writer has chimed in to say, "Oh yeah, I meant for it to work like this."

What are you bitching at me for? Why don't you do something useful like spamming Synner to update the errata that you're so desperate to get.

what, you mean like posting a thread requesting a clarification on the dumpshock forums? :P
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Buster
post Sep 25 2007, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 24 2007, 09:26 PM)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 24 2007, 11:47 AM)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 24 2007, 11:37 AM)
EDIT: Jaid's edit answers it perfectly.

And yet, even so, you two seem to disagree on whether the head should be included in damage resistance.
QUOTE (Buster)
I can't imagine the skull adds or subtracts anything from the average body
QUOTE (Jaid)
basically only the body attribute for damage resistance tests, really
Wouldn't it be great if we could get an official answer and never have to wonder about this ever again?
I'm not really expecting an update to the errata anytime soon, but there's been plenty of times when a writer has chimed in to say, "Oh yeah, I meant for it to work like this."

What are you bitching at me for? Why don't you do something useful like spamming Synner to update the errata that you're so desperate to get.

what, you mean like posting a thread requesting a clarification on the dumpshock forums? :P

No, he keeps asking for an official answer from the developers, and since the developers are MIA, we're trying to help him and he's just getting hostile about it. I'm just saying he's bitching to the wrong people.
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The Jopp
post Sep 25 2007, 07:24 AM
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I’ll make it simple for you brothers. Let me quote from the holy scriptures. Page 335 and Psalm “Cyberlimbs?…

“Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in this category, though they are in fact shells
rather than full replacements.?


There you have it brothers, the holy scriptures clearly states that they indeed counts as cyberlimbs and follow the same rules. Sure, they are “in fact? shells but the rules labels them as cyberlimbs. :cyber:
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ixombie
post Sep 25 2007, 11:15 AM
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It makes sense if a flimsy skull drops your overall resistance. It doesn't make sense for str and agi, but guess what? It doesn't matter! The rules specifically state that when using a particular limb for a test, you can use that limb's stats - so if you punch with your strong arm or shoot with your fast arm, you use that arm's stats. Overall str and agi actually don't matter in any example I can think of, at least as long as you can use a limb or set of limbs that exceeds your overall stat.
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The Jopp
post Sep 25 2007, 11:22 AM
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For simplicity I would rule the following:

Single limb action: Firing a gun, hitting someone - Use limb attribute
(Yes, it can be debated that one use more than one limb but it's easier as the limb does the primary work...)

Full body movement: Running, leaping, tumbling, climbing - Use average attribute
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Buster
post Sep 25 2007, 01:09 PM
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Unless you're a GI Joe action figure, you're going to use more than your arm to fight. But according to the book, you do, so following the book's logic, running and jumping would only be leg tests, not full body tests.
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