 Needed Revision to the Horrors, The concept has a few problems... |
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 Sep 25 2007, 06:32 PM
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#1
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Awakened Master Ninja  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844  |
Let me start by saying that I’m fascinated by the Horrors. I’ve purchased every Shadowrun adventure and novel with them in it that I could find. I got into Earthdawn because of them – haven’t actually played it, but I keep buying the books…
I’m also fascinated by kaers and the technical details of them, but then I’m a geek and things like that fascinate me, so just go with it. :-) Anyway, the biggest problem that I can find with Horrors is that, as presented, they’re an ELE. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELE for further details. If these things are really eating *the entire biosphere* every time they show up, there’s really no recovery from that. But that’s what they’re presented as doing, which means they’re a broken game concept. BUT, they’re too cool to lose, so they need revision. My take is as follows. The real problem is the mega-hordes of “mindless eaters.� These have to go – there’s just no way around that. Humanity still has to hide from the more sophisticated “I inflict pain and misery on you and feed on it� types of Horrors, but those guys don’t seem to be interested in eating up the entire landscape in between periods of feasting on your agony and suffering. There could even be predatory horrors that do ravage *some* of the landscape, but their numbers are going to have to be reduced down from the billions/trillions level down to something the ecosystem can deal with, or at least eventually recover from (note that their ravaging is going to keep going on for 400 to 500 years…). And I actually have another bit of a problem with the Shadowrun/Earthdawn timeline, which is (presumably) supposed to go like this: 1st Age: No magic, but presumably life comes into existence through whatever means. 2nd Age: Magic comes ‘round! And with it the first Scourge at the height of the cycle. 3rd Age: Cycle’s over, no more magic for a while. 4th Age: Magic’s back! And the Earthdawn era Scourge occurs. 5th Age: Our time, no more magic for a while. 6th Age: Magic’s back again, but it’s early in the cycle. Some nutjobs are trying to hurry the Scourge along, but they haven’t been successful. Yet. The problem I see is – how did the 2nd Age survive the Scourge? It should have hit them with no warning. The second Scourge in the 4th Age had the Books of Harrow – described as unbelievably ancient and presumably left over from the last Scourge as a warning. I’m just wondering how anyone survived it to be able to write it (yes, I know it was dictated to a Dragon by a Horror), but how did the rest of the races survive? My $0.02 on the topic, at any rate… |
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Sep 25 2007, 06:43 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I don't think I've fallen off my chair laughing in quite some time. Thank you.
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Sep 25 2007, 07:09 PM
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Care to explain? I've never followed the Horrors and ED connection all that closely, and have only recently actually started looking at any of it. The OP certainly doesn't seem to be joking, and so I'm missing the point of your post somehow. |
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Sep 25 2007, 07:13 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I've just never run across someone that wants to "fix" this particular thing-that-doesn't-require-fixing before, and it amuses me. Also paraphrasing a line from somewhere you're probably unfamiliar with. There is a problem with the "Ages" as they currently stand, but they've been discussed to death already and nothing new has been added in this thread so far.
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Sep 25 2007, 07:17 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Hey! No paraphrasing The Laughing Man on this board!
I think you may be confusing "The Books of Harrow" with "The Book of Scales" (see Legends of Earthdawn). LRG says that in the East, the people survived the Scourge under the protection of the Great Dragons, although how is not specified (presumably a varient of the magic used to create a dragon's lair). As to exactly how the world survived the Second Age Scourge, that has been left mysterious. I just assume they created the Rites of Protection and Passage, and the Books of Harrow were their "notebook", so to speak. |
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Sep 25 2007, 07:22 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Janessa: go to earthdawn.com, under "forums", then "for players". Look for a thread called "Accounting for geological history in earthdawn". I asked a similar question, and a fellow called Mataxes answered it nicely.
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Sep 25 2007, 07:23 PM
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#7
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
Ummm...how does this not require fixing? And can you point me to those threads where the Ages are discussed? I'd love to read them. Thanks. |
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Sep 25 2007, 07:24 PM
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#8
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
Hmmm...don't own that one yet, but I'll add it to my purchase list. Haven't actually heard of the Book of Scales, but I'll look into it... |
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Sep 25 2007, 07:27 PM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Link to the post Zhan Shi mentioned: http://www.earthdawn.com/forum/index.php?topic=454.0
Thanks. The more I learn about the "meta-meta" plot the more fascinating it becomes. |
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Sep 25 2007, 07:27 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Briefly: a horror took control of a dragon, forced him to rip out his own scales, and made him write all sorts of vile knowledge on them, using his own blood as ink.
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Sep 25 2007, 07:32 PM
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#11
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
Ok, I have confused them then. Thanks for clarifying that. Ok, just looked over my PDF copy of the Earthdawn intro (the ED companies put some nice freebies on the net), and while it mentiones a blood-inscribed rune on the covers, the 6 books don't look they were inscribed dragon scales. |
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Sep 25 2007, 08:01 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 6-July 07 Member No.: 12,167 |
You might also want to check out this thread:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=18748&st=50 |
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Sep 25 2007, 08:43 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
You could just say that the last age was 5000 years ago, but not all ages are the same length of time. The 1st age could be the time when animated life first took over the oceans or when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, millions of years ago.
You could also say that sometime during one of the ages, the sentient races transported themselves from this earth into some pocket realm deep in the astral to escape the Horrors. Therefore no fossil records or artifacts. Nice and neat and fits all the facts. Maybe they never left their realm and only come here in soul form to be reincarnated as humanoids. I think there was a religion or a South Park episode that was kind of like that... :D |
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Sep 25 2007, 08:51 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
If the "mindless eaters" (or any other horror) ran out of food, I would imagine they'd return home, then look for another world to devour. If you're planning on bringing the Horrors into your campaign, they would be from the Deep Metaplanes, and may not suffer evannescence; in Worlds Without End, I seem to remember Harlequin saying something like "They need a certain magic level to cross over; they don't need it to remain." Or perhaps they do suffer it, but have to use some special ability to keep their forms anchored in the gaiasphere; as I recall, the Rites disrupted the Horrors "concentration", and hence they had to run away or be forced back to their home metaplane.
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Sep 25 2007, 09:13 PM
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#15
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
Well, my point is that after devouring every last scrap of life in the biosphere, there would be no campaign after that. Earth would be a totally dead world, with the exception of the kaers here and there. It would have no breathable atmosphere, and all the plants, animals, insects, and even micro-organisms would be *gone*. There's no campaign world LEFT after an event like that. After that, there would have been no Earthdawn after the Scourge, no 5th Age, and no 6th Age. |
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Sep 25 2007, 09:34 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Just assume that the earth regenerated itself during the downcycle. Or maybe when the mana returns, it has a rejuvenating effect. Or maybe the dragons performed one of their Big Badass Dragon Magic rituals.
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Sep 25 2007, 09:36 PM
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#17
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Does every mystery need to be explained?
Maybe some horrors are smart enough to keep some food around for next time. |
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Sep 25 2007, 09:46 PM
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#18
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
Sigh. I seriously dislike such blatant "and the gods hit the reset button" explanations to cover up gaping holes in a storyline. But if it works for your campaign... |
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Sep 25 2007, 09:51 PM
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#19
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
The problem is, too many of them aren't presented that way, just as eating machines - with a 400 to 500 year, 24/7, all-you-can-eat-and-then-some banquet at their disposal. There's simply nothing left to regenerate the biosphere after an event that catastrophic. Barren rocks don't just start spouting plants and animals - unless that really is a side-effect of magic in the world, an explanation that strikes me as truly inelegant world design if that's the case. |
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Sep 25 2007, 10:04 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 6-July 07 Member No.: 12,167 |
In the Dragons book from ED they mention that he Horrors also devour themselves. In fact Big V ( The big daddy of all Horrors, and Dragons for that matter...) like to just sit back and watch everyone fight and devour themselves, and then just create more for them to fight/devour. So perhaps as some point the Horrors turn on themselves and enough of the the world is left to eventually repopulate/regenerate the world.
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Sep 25 2007, 10:10 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
The is also a "species" of Horror mentioned in the Parlainth box set. It has found that other Horrors make more satisfying prey. Can't remember the name, but they were clearly influenced by Kali, the Hindu deity.
Well, until the Earthdawn developers come up with a concrete explanation, we'll all just have to wing it. It's fun to speculate, but don't let that gap ruin your gaming experience. |
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Sep 25 2007, 10:34 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Here's a theory that may help solve some things. If the mana level of the biosphere is dependent on the amount of living matter in the biosphere. Then as the horrors are eating their way through the biosphere, they would eventually eat to a point where the mana level can not support them. They would have to leave before devouring all life, because the remaining life can't support the mana level that they require. Or the classic predator-prey relationship, that as the available prey declines from over hunting, predators starve and die off, changing the ratio of prey to predator and allowing prey to rebuild after the predator die off. Though they never specify what horrors eat when they aren't eating earth, so we can't really begin to speculate that far. |
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Sep 25 2007, 10:51 PM
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#23
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 932 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
Which is a totally interesting concept! One drawback I see - if there's billions/trillions of these things covering every square inch of the globe, the Scourge would have taken say, a year, tops before being over? Which could make for an interesting variant ED campaign, I suppose. I've just been thinking about the eventual ramifications for the 6th World. |
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Sep 25 2007, 10:54 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I like that one. :) |
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Sep 25 2007, 11:02 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 6-July 07 Member No.: 12,167 |
I'm not sure the billions/trillions number is exactly accurate. Unless you want to buy into the idea that they attack more then just this world.
I think the answer is a combnation of things mentioned here. That Many Horrors attack each other, that the smarter Horrors keep the dumper devourers in check to some extent ( everything I have read leads me to think that he devourers are at the bottom rung of horrorland, and those that feed on emotions are higher and more powerful ) as well as the fact eventually they will eat the mana levels low enough that they cannot function as well. And then there is Big V, who love to see alot of death and destruction, even amoung his own horoi. |
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