Catwoman Redux - Dumpshock Forums

Catwoman Redux, Let's continue, shall we?

Zhan Shi View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 07:36 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615	As per The Fisty of Doom's request, this thread is a carry over from "Curse of the Catwoman". I'd like to continue to get people's thoughts on this. Post away!

Sammiel View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 08:00 PM Post #2
Target Group: Members Posts: 83 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,336	I consider extreme sexual deviancy to be present in an extreme minority of shadowrun games, and as such, doesn't need to be discussed on a general forum for that game. As I said, I have no problem with ex prostitutes/sex slaves turned PCs, but multibreasted hermaphrodite furries don't belong in Shadowrun.

WearzManySkins View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 08:07 PM Post #3
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440	Well the first thread was most informative in most if not all postings. :D As for where or not furries belong, like one has said the Comet changed things for SR. I will be posting a backstory relating to that thread and that character. Go for it Zhan, if there is something I feel I can contribute, I will, as will others. :D Just remember do not post any links that in any way can be seen as child porn or such things. WMS

Buster View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 08:20 PM Post #4
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869	In other words, no Sailor Moon. Gotcha. :D

Zhan Shi View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 08:32 PM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615	As to Adam's comment about violence vs. sex being more accepted by Americans, I would say that's definitely true. In fairness, however, there has been an increasing outcry against gratuitous violence in cinema and tv. Part of it has to do with context. Think of the difference beween "Saving Private Ryan" and, say "Planet Terror" or "Fight Club". I would also add that the greatest outcry has been not against sex or violence alone, but against media which COMBINE the two in a, for lack of a better word, blasphemous whole. We yanks tend to prefer to keep our smut and our death/destruction separate.

Zhan Shi View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 08:38 PM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615	For those who are new to the discussion, and who are bored enough to be interested, my thoughts on the subject are on the second page of "Curse of the Catwoman". Some of my best posts, if I do say so myself. :D

FrankTrollman

Sep 25 2007, 09:43 PM

Post #7

Prime Runner

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QUOTE (Buster)

In other words, no Sailor Moon. Gotcha. :D

As discussed earlier, Sailor Senshi are just followers of a Possession tradition. So Sailor Moon is already in Shadowrun and has been since Awakenings. The SR4 tradition rules make her even easier. I made sure of that during the writing process.

-Frank

Wounded Ronin

Sep 25 2007, 10:23 PM

Post #8

Great Dragon

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This is being broken off from the "Curse of the Catwoman" thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...25&#entry592478

QUOTE

As interesting a discussion as moral relativity/ambiguety in SR is, it doesn't belong in this thread. This one was specifically for the discussion of the closure of the Catwoman thread. Please continue this line of thought in the SR forum. This forum is forum discussion of Dumpshock issues.

QUOTE

You could make the exact same argument about pederasty. Try telling the mods (or anyone else, for that matter) that kiddie porn is "not extreme, or even original". The point I was trying to make was not about originality, but about class. IMO, you have a rather extreme opinion on what is not extreme.

QUOTE

Well you know, women with killer vaginas has a pretty long mythological pedigree. I remember reading a few myths with a similar theme; the one I remember was vaginas like clamshells that would clamp down on a penis and not let go. I think that it comes from some archetypal subconscious fear men have of psychologically toxic women.

Demon and human intercourse is also pretty old hat. That was a big thing in medieval Europe when church authorities wanted to burn "witches". They'd make the women confess to demonic intercourse. So I don't see what's particularly new or shocking about that.

Snuff films have also been around the block in terms of urban legendery.

Shit-eating (coprophilia) happens enough anyway that there's a medical term for it. A couple months ago myself and the medical officer were laughing it up over coprophilia jokes.

Cannibalism is a rare but historically authentic cultural practice in some parts of the world.

See, none of that is actually very extreme or even original. In fact it's pretty much all old cliches.

QUOTE

I fail to see how pederasty, child pornography, or slavery are more "extreme" than murder. Yet there's no outcry against mentions of wetwork or elimination of witnesses (at least that I've seen).

Many people play games like Shadowrun as a chance to explore topics and themes that they only dare touch in a purely imaginary context. This includes a dark world full of greedy callous people doing awful, horrible things to one another.

Despite everything I just said above the plotline involving the children in Running Scared left me too disturbed to even think about sex for a good week. So I do understand where much of this feeling comes from, but I think that such disturbing topics do have their place in Shadowrun, and should be able to be discussed (in some form) on these boards as long as posters stay within the guidelines about posting adult content or links to adult content.

QUOTE

Precisely. But what's the point at which that line is crossed? Pictures as in your example? None were posted in this instance, it was a textual description of a character. Albeit one that used graphic language. Would a more moderate description be tolerable under the terms of use? It's a tricky area, as I'm sure the mods know, having to actually make the calls.

QUOTE

In general, american society, and the hobby gaming industry seems to think that violent fantasy is much more acceptable than sexual fantasy.

QUOTE

page 21, SR4: "Wetwork is assassination, pure and simple. Many runners refuse to take these jobs and view dirtying their hands for money in this way as vile."

page 258, SR4: "Gaining Notoriety"
"*Incredibly obnoxious or callous behavior. ("Forget returning that
orphanage's money. Let the brats starve.")
"*Killing an innocent person."

Hardly an outcry. I agree that any rpg will deal with dark side of human nature as a matter of course. But even (most) runners have a line beyond which they won't go, and the game does seem to reflect this. The game does make a distinction between "killing" and "murder", and between "killing Joe Average Wageslave" and "Killing the Mayan Cutter", and between "killing the Yak enforcer" and "selling technomancers to the corps for vivisection". The karma awards in all published SR adventures also support this view. Bottom line, I'm not trying to be a censor. If meat eating vaginas are your thing, then go with it; just leave the hardcore stuff to the imaginations of various players and GMs, rather than printing it in the sourcebooks. I'd hate to see SR fall into the same cesspool White Wolf did. I could give a far more graphic example, but won't do it without mod approval. It is quite disgusting and violent, but does not involve children or animals, and would be a synopsis of something actually published in a book for Vampire: The Masquerade.

DISCUSS! FOR YOUR COUNTRY, TODAY!!!

Mr. Croup

Sep 25 2007, 10:29 PM

Post #9

Target

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QUOTE (Sammiel)

I consider extreme sexual deviancy to be present in an extreme minority of shadowrun games, and as such, doesn't need to be discussed on a general forum for that game.

As I said, I have no problem with ex prostitutes/sex slaves turned PCs, but multibreasted hermaphrodite furries don't belong in Shadowrun.

On the contrary with the advent of the transhumanist movement, hermaphrodite mulitbreasted furries do belong in shadowrun, depending on how far the player of said character is willing to take it.

Wounded Ronin

Sep 25 2007, 10:37 PM

Post #10

Great Dragon

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QUOTE

In general, american society, and the hobby gaming industry seems to think that violent fantasy is much more acceptable than sexual fantasy.

So, I'll kick this off in order to get the party started, especially since I've got a nice anecdote about this one.

There is an elderly man here in the Federated States of Micronesia who always brings up the issue of sex versus violence in movies, specifically the issue about how many people seem to see the violence as being okay to show kids but not sex. He always says, "Why do we want to show killing, but not show love?"

I have the same question about the table top RPG industry. Let's look at D&D. Even back in the 70s when D&D was simultaneously awesome AND being accused of being satanic, there was plenty of merciless butchery of orcs and so forth but I don't recall reading anything about sex. I remember reading about how a preliminary edition of "palace of the silver princess" had an illusory tied up woman who looked kind of distressed with monsters dancing around and some staff member flipped out and axed that encounter completely.

I mean, I've got a long memory of genocidal practices (killing all the orcs in a given dungeon in order to systematically glean all the gold from inside the dungeon) which would make Cortez proud being totally acceptable with no questions asked. But if the elf mage wants to lovingly fellate the half-elf Ranger with the stars shining brilliantly overhead and the calm silence of unjudging nature wrapping them like a gossamer sheet that's a total no-go.

Shadowrun, to its credit, does have bunraku parlors and pornographic sim, but I still sense a certain cultural resistance here where we can talk in great detail about decapitating the hapless night watchman with a Barret, or cutting him into quarters with a dikoted katana, or using our decker to make the sentry gun drill his kidneys, and then hack him to pieces and sell his meat to Tamanous, but generally speaking if somebody wanted to make elaborate plans to start a bunraku parlor I sense that there'd be some resistance here.

Like, I remember one time someone talked about how a character in Food Fight captured the ganger chick with the deadly high heels and kept her chained up in his apartment because the character wanted to start a harem. And then there was a great deal of flip-outage over this.

Basically, I think that there's an irrational contradiction here in terms of cultural values that doesn't make much sense logically.

Wounded Ronin

Sep 25 2007, 10:51 PM

Post #11

Great Dragon

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Finally, a little review of DSF history:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...9&st=0&hl=harem

OK, here's what I was talking about:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=harem&st=25

QUOTE

Zany (the ganger chick) is now currently sitting in the basement of the troll tank's apartment chained to the wall as part of a harem he's planning to build. MAN did we have a ball with that run. I may do it again later on just for the hell of it

QUOTE

Um...Dotdotdot, anyone?

QUOTE

That's just fucking sick. I can't believe you find that funny.

QUOTE

I concur with arethusa.

QUOTE

That's pretty twisted... but how is it inherently worse than killing her on the spot? The last time I ran food fight, the gangers pretty much all ended up dead.

I take it you're running an amoral campaign.

QUOTE

It's definitely something that could make for good material in Shadowrun. Dark, gritty, unheroic; of course, it's also necessary to avoid letting the excuses the characters make convince the players.

QUOTE

Yes. How, exactly, is that worse than shooting her in the head? They're both really, really bad and horribly repugnant, but why is it that the one draws a response that the other does not?

If you're pragmatic about it, the rape is a "lesser" transgression than the murder (presuming there is a moral heriarchy for these things). At least with the rape there is a chance of escape and possibly recover (all be it a hard road). When you're dead, you don't get better.

It's wrong, I agree, and if I had to deal with it as a GM, I'd probably find a way to get that character killed in short order. If the player made another character with the same bent... then it'd be time for a Talk™ and/or the Boot™. Depending on how insistant he was on it the first time around, it might be time for a Talk™ right then. If it's the character, that's fine... I can kill off characters I don't like. If it's the player who's an amoral SOB with some bizzare fantasy thing going on, I don't want to play with him.

This is my favorite post:

QUOTE

Because media desensitizes everyone here to the true horror of death and murder. People rarely see rape and humiliation on television, video games, comic books and movies so when they DO see it, the crime is more real to them. Since we see people get shot in the head all the time it's no big deal. We ignore the clear logic that indeed, some pain, degradation, and mental anguish is far preferable to never taking another breath, seeing another day, feeling anything ever again. Not even the coldness, the complete loneliness, or the slow decay and consumption of the empty carcass. Nothing. Ever.

We could also make a point that organized religion teaches the masses to be much more accepting of death, selling it as a 'release' from earthly pain to a paradise that may or may not really exist. But that would probably cause a flame war.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head in terms of exposing the irrationality of the relative political correctness of killing versus the political incorrectness of anything related to sexuality. For some reason it seems like the genitals are seen as the biggest threat to society still, and the most destructive implement ever created. Think that nuclear annhilation is okay to show on TV but bukkake is not. It really makes me think.

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 10:59 PM Post #12
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Dammit Zhan Shi, you should have posted that you were making this thread. I read the Catwoman thread and went through lots of trouble to make a new thread with a nice reference to a similar discussion which arose on DSF several years ago: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19205 Besides, isn't this issue broad enough that it should be general Shadowrun and not specific SR4?

Zhan Shi View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 11:17 PM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615	This thread was here for almost three hours before you posted in SR. I was under the impression Fisty did'nt want any more clutter in the previous thread. I put it in SR4 because it's the most current SR version, and because this all started within the context of Augmentation. But I'm sorry if I put you through unnecessary work.

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 11:19 PM Post #14
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Mods, admin, can we get a thread merge?

WearzManySkins View Member Profile	Sep 25 2007, 11:32 PM Post #15
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440	OK example from here in Dumpshock of moral ambiguity In a game there. OOC Plans are being talked about blowing up a school for a needed diversion, "We will make sure no kid gets hurt/killed." But blowing up a Humanis Policlub is too risky due to Brackhaven interests in such. WMS

Ancient History View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:24 AM Post #16
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	Okay, question here: are we talking about the moral ambiguity of Dumpshock or of Shadowrun? SR4 has gotten a bit darker lately. One notable example is in On the Run, where a BTL dealer keeps a gang of too-young-to-shave addicts around for security. How do y'all, as players and gamemasters feel about this?

AngelisStorm View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:29 AM Post #17
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 616 Joined: 30-April 07 From: Edge of the Redmond Barrens, Borderline NAN. Runnin' the border for literal milk runs. Member No.: 11,565	"Multibreasted hermaphrodite furries don't belong in Shadowrun." All I can go with is: Why? If penile replacements and breast augmentations that seep snake venom belong, why shouldn't the above? It's between the player group and the GM with regards to how they want to theme their campaign. My main problem is that, in my experience, the players who want to play such a character are going to derail the game or be so obnoxious that the GM is going to quite or kill the character. Their likely to be completely self absorbed and have a one dimensional character who is best summed up as a "Multibreasted hermaphrodite furry." (I do not doubt there are mature players out there who could play such a character and have such characteristics simply be an interesting part of the character's backstory, which in part led them to who they are today. I just don't know any of them. At least who would want to.) It's similar to how, as a GM, I've never had a "demolitions expert" make it out of the bar they were introduced in. They always do something that causes a combination of npc's/pc's to kill them stone dead. (Once again as above, know there are players who can handle such a role. In fact I have players who are experts in the field of explosives. I just seem to have bad experiences with players who say "I WANT TO PLAY A DEMOLITIONS EXPERT!")

wargear View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:33 AM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 219 Joined: 26-April 02 From: Emerald City, Oz Member No.: 2,648	The world of Shadowrun is a hard place to survive in. Exploration of the depths of savagry and depravity the human creature is able and willing to descent to in the name of survival, or in the absense of civilisation is part of what the game is about. To earn nuyen for day to day survival, my friends and I have variously; been pimps, run extortion or protection rackets, cast healing and enhancement spells on prostitutes, sold bodies to tamanous, the list goes on. It gets worse when an actual run becomes involved. The indiscriminate laying of explosives in populated (civilian) areas to serve as a distraction, murder of innocent witnesses, kidnapping, the usual...you've all done it... As a player, I live a stressful frustrating life with a shitty job in a polluted world and for some reason our civilisation frowns upon me cleaving up my boss with a machete...so I game. (And if my character occasionally does unto a certain class of business owner with a machete...who's to know different?) It's a release, a chance for us to let our inner barbarian out to play a little. I dunno, whatever...

WearzManySkins

Sep 26 2007, 12:35 AM

Post #19

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QUOTE (AngelisStorm)

"It's similar to how, as a GM, I've never had a "demolitions expert" make it out of the bar they were introduced in. They always do something that causes a combination of npc's/pc's to kill them stone dead.

(Once again as above, know there are players who can handle such a role. In fact I have players who are experts in the field of explosives. I just seem to have bad experiences with players who say "I WANT TO PLAY A DEMOLITIONS EXPERT!")

:rotfl: Well I have a demolitions expert playing in a game here in Dumpshock, and he as made it past the intro bar scene. :)

WMS

AngelisStorm View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:41 AM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 616 Joined: 30-April 07 From: Edge of the Redmond Barrens, Borderline NAN. Runnin' the border for literal milk runs. Member No.: 11,565	See? :) I said there had to be people out there who could do it.

Hartbaine View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:43 AM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 4-September 07 Member No.: 13,115	What is this thread actually about? Sex and Violence in the SR universe or what? I'm a bit lost...

Mercer

Sep 26 2007, 12:50 AM

Post #22

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QUOTE (Ancient History)

How do y'all, as players and gamemasters feel about this?

I'm of two minds about this. It's pretty much the same line I use with any other form of entertainment. If its crass, exploitive or tasteless, I don't particularly care for it. If its used to serve the needs of the story, then I can get behind it. Its the difference between the ear scene in Reservoir Dogs, and any of the torture porn movies that have come out recently (Saw, Saw II, Hostel, Hostel II, Saw III, and so on). Far be it from me to debase a series of movies without having watched them, so I'll just say that the Saw's are not my cup of tea and I take my movie watching money elsewhere, which is not to take away from anyone who enjoys them. Its a question of personal preference; there are a lot of people who'd find Reservoir Dogs tasteless and crass.

In the example of the underage bodyguards, in a game it could be handled as an interesting role-playing and tactical challenge, or it could be the GM sticking us with a lose/lose situation. Likewise, the GM could be presenting it as the former and the group could be ignoring the moral implications ("Let's see if we can't get a grenade next to the dealer, that way his child bodyguards contain the explosion rather than buffer against it.") which I think is just as bad.

Its all in the execution (so to speak).

Zhan Shi View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:53 AM Post #23
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615	Short answer: look at "Curse of the Catwoman". If you want to go a bit further, check out Augmentation Review, and if you want to go REALY far back, look at Augmentation: ask the developers.

fistandantilus4....

Sep 26 2007, 12:55 AM

Post #24

Uncle Fisty

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Mods, admin, can we get a thread merge?

As long as Zhan has no objections, I would bring the SR thread into this one. Bringing it into the SR4 forum would be simply because it will inevitably include some augmentations from the SR4 system.

I would ask that it stays out of the realm for moral depravity for the purposes of shock value only. I meant what I said, that the discussions are fine as long as it sticks to the purposes of actually developing the character in a constructive sense. Which is not the same as constructing the character simply to shock with it's deviancy. Also understand that my opinion of what is and isn't too far may differ form others, and I understand that. So any reviews of objectional materials is handled by all the mods as a consensus. That will be the same for any subjects of violence. Posts about detailed torture will end up the same way the post that closed the original thread will end the same way.

Lastly, reincarnating a thread that was closed becuase of mod action is very much frowned on. We're letting this one go because there may be some useful content from the original intention. I suggested a thread discussing the morals inolved, not the same subject again.

Kerris View Member Profile	Sep 26 2007, 12:55 AM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,360	I think it's about extreme sexual deviance in SR, stemming from the creation of a "furry" sex toy character. As to the question of whether such deviance exists in SR, I have one word: Powerline (Runner Havens, p. 112). It explicitly states that the downstairs of this Belleview bar consists of several BDSM dungeons, a bar, and a dance floor (the latter two being irrelevant). The description also states that the AR overlays are customizable. I would not be surprised if there is a furry scene in this area as well as BDSM. (Extrapolation is cool). That said, I hope it doesn't come up in my game. (And to my player(s) that lurk(s): This won't come up in my game. Your character will die.)

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