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> Why you should take away your players' toys, reading articles on cyberpunk
Wounded Ronin
post Sep 29 2007, 04:05 AM
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So, I've been reading an essay on cyberpunk:

http://www.talsorian.com/cp_cinema_7.shtml

QUOTE

Time and time again in Cyberpunk stories, the central figure is bequeathed with his "magic sword," and promptly loses it and is forced to do battle without it. In Escape From New York and its sequel, Snake Plissken is given mounds of weapons and technology, all of which he promptly loses during the course of his journey. In Neuromancer and Johnny Mnemonic, Case and Johnny (respectively) each have special magic toys they use to do things with their nervous systems and minds... and both have that gift crippled right from the get go. In The Road Warrior and BT, Mad Max has weapons and vehicles, and loses them almost immediately. And so on. The short of it: Cyberpunk isn't necessarily about a man with wonderful toys battling bad guys with wonderful toys. Often, it's about a central figure who has to face bad guys with better toys than he has. Cyberpunk isn't about having. It's about wanting, getting, and losing, an endless search for a Heaven that can't quite be achieved.



This proves that when you run a Shadowrun game you don't have to be afraid of breaking your player characters' toys; that's what's supposed to happen!

Damn, if only I'd known that years ago I could have avoided power level bloat so much more efficiently.
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Kyoto Kid
post Sep 29 2007, 04:37 AM
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...Yeah I had a GM harsh on "big ticket" gear. Dynamo Jo (#8 for those keeping score) simply gave up ever buying another vehicle and for the most part only used inexpensive drones. If she really needed a car or plane she just went out and "borrowed" one. If it got trashed, which usually happened in the course of a mission (the most expensive being a turboprop airliner during a job in Amazonia), it was no big deal, someone else's insurance would pay for it.

Form another game (Champions) My heroine Amber (#9...wow a twofer!) had her power focus taken away. This lasted for quite a few sessions. Without it she had no access to her superpowers and had to rely on her skills, resourcefulness, and "good looks". The funny thing is, I actually began to enjoy playing her without her powers, and discovered she was still a very viable and effective character. In a way I was somewhat disappointed when she eventually got it back, however the experience made her a much stronger character both in personality and in the way she dealt with situations.
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Kyleigh Wester
post Sep 29 2007, 04:49 AM
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I agree....to an extent. However if your player just saved up two million nuyen on a 10k per mission budget to get his super uber omega deck, and you take it away from him with a snap of a finger....it's going to be nothing but frustration. Remember, it's a game, and sometimes you might want the players to keep the fruits of their labors, otherwise it'll feel like all that money was for nothing and quit. I just got level two cultured pheromones on my combat decker for some good fast talking skills, if I had those taken away i'd have a massive headache.

Take things away, sure. Guns, ammo, vehicals, burn a house to the ground. But don't over do it. On the flip side, if they do something and they lose it or let it get damaged, thats their problem.
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Platinum
post Sep 29 2007, 04:54 AM
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Many of the times, players will suggest having things happen to their own characters. They will basically burn everything and fake a death leaving them with very little and a fresh start.
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Kyoto Kid
post Sep 29 2007, 05:49 AM
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QUOTE (Platinum)
Many of the times, players will suggest having things happen to their own characters.  They will basically burn everything and fake a death leaving them with very little and a fresh start.

...tried this once, had a character blow a total of 700k :nuyen: in the process and all for nothing as she still ended up as one of Hestaby's lackeys (read "NPC") at Shasta.

...sometimes it doesn't matter how much you effort, time (both for character and player), and resources put into it if the GM has his mind made up from the outset that the fraggin dragon Always wins. :grr:
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Critias
post Sep 29 2007, 06:39 AM
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I can't tell you how many characters I've given a dagger to in D&D, a hold out to in SR or CP:2020, an unarmed combat skill to, extra firearms skills (one SR3 character has all of them at 5 or more) to above and beyond their standard gear... just on the off chance my GM will take away my toys.

It's only ever happened once, and that was in a two player game I co-GMed, specifically because MFB and I wanted to see if it was the goodies or the characters that kicked all the ass. We had our characters get captured from a family barbecue of all things, disarmed, and dropped off on the far side of the continent in their easy-summer-living flip flops and tee shirts (not even armored clothing).

Just once, and it was my own idea, in my 17 or so years of gaming. I still buy every D&D character a dagger, though, and all the rest of it. My Shadowrun guys still have a few points in Unarmed, my CP:2020 guys still always have a disposable hold out handy. Everyone I've got knows at least three different ways to fight, not just uber-specializing in his favorite SMG. "Just in case."

And for those curious, right about the time MFB's adept and my sammie finished kicking to death six or eight troll gangers (while we were handcuffed and still recovering from Stun damage from our diceless, off-camera, capture), we decided it really was us that kicked ass, not just our high budget goodies.
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Wounded Ronin
post Sep 29 2007, 07:09 AM
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Well, a back-up weapon in any RPG system with any GM is just a good idea. You never know when the module will have something that destroys your primary weapon or tool written into it. It's rare but it happens. Like, for example, when in "In Search Of The Unknown" your level 1 mage is using a staff and decides to use it to probe the acid pool which destroys the staff. You'll feel a lot better if he also had a dagger after he uses up his 1 level 1 spell than if he's now going to have to throw punches when cornered.
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Whipstitch
post Sep 29 2007, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 29 2007, 02:09 AM)
Well, a back-up weapon in any RPG system with any GM is just a good idea. You never know when the module will have something that destroys your primary weapon or tool written into it. It's rare but it happens. Like, for example, when in "In Search Of The Unknown" your level 1 mage is using a staff and decides to use it to probe the acid pool which destroys the staff. You'll feel a lot better if he also had a dagger after he uses up his 1 level 1 spell than if he's now going to have to throw punches when cornered.

Tell me about it. Back in ol' 2nd edition game-that-shall-not-be-named I'd often blow a profiency point on clubs when playing a fighter, even if it meant I'd have to wait a couple extra levels to be as good with a bow as I was with my primary melee weapon. My fellow players at first thought me paranoid, but the habit soon proved its worth upon many occasions, since I was usually just a femur, table leg or branch away from being armed and dangerous if we happened to be caught away from our gear.
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Nikoli
post Sep 29 2007, 07:27 AM
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For D&D, the backup of choice is the Adamantine dagger. It'll hurt most things (bypassing hardness) and cuts lock hasps like butter.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 29 2007, 08:50 AM
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Forcing players to carry backup weapons and take proficiencies in clubs is exactly why the Rust Monster was invented.

Nothing lasts forever and many things used on an adventure will probably be lost on that adventure. The whole "We were captured but all of out equipment is in a convenient storage area nearby" is painfull cliche. "We were captured and all of out equipment has been sent to a forensics lab on the other side of the country" is far more realistic.
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Cthulhudreams
post Sep 29 2007, 03:30 PM
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Two points:

Take peoples stuff away from in D&D is a recipe for disaster. It doesn't even matter for sorcerers, Druids Clerics are inconvenienced for the 4.2 nanoseconds until they find/improvise a holy symbol then they are right back to shape shifting into bears and being better than anyone else, Wizards cry because they don't have a spell book, but thats recoverable and they can still cast whatever spells they had memorized, then they go back to being awesome.

However classes like warriors and rogues are totally defined by their weapons and gear. At level 7-8ish a warrior needs to be able to cut through the wall of stone that the BBEG summoned to trap him and without Excalibur he just can't do it. (He's even more screwed when the BBEG busts out force cage, then 'Excalibur' has to be an artifact :P)

Point two:

Taking peoples gear away from then in games like SR where classes are not totally gear dependant is cool, if they can get it back - a hacker needs a commlink, but if he just boosts something of the trolls they beat up, and it has some crappy programs, he's back in business.
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nezumi
post Sep 30 2007, 04:25 AM
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It's easy to say 'easy come, easy go'. Unfortunately, most people forget the 'easy come' part first. I don't mind destroying, stealing or otherwise subverting primary weapons and tools, however I tend to leave expensive toys around for the party to pick up as well. My one party very nearly just inherited a fully outfitted Ares Dragon! They'll have to make do with the combat armor of the people inside.

My problem, and I'd love to hear solutions, is how to deal with mages. You can steal the street sam's guns, the decker's deck, the rigger's vehicles and the adept's swords, but you can't steal the mage's spells. Sure, you can put him in a high background-count area, but that's temporary and he knows it. Even if they have crazy powerful foci, they know that if they lose it they can still kick major butt. So, without permanently pooching the character, how do you eliminate or reduce the mage's ability to cast when tossing him in with the rest of a weaponless party?
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Platinum
post Sep 30 2007, 04:29 AM
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nuke thier foci?

Give him stun damage to deal with for a while. Give him/her an artifact that taints their magic. They might think that it's good for them, but in fact will be bad. A cursed foci, that gives you 3 magic rating or weapon focus .. but also gives you a +1 +2 tn.
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Cthulhudreams
post Sep 30 2007, 05:56 AM
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You're pretty much screwed because mages run off karma and street sammies run off Nuyen. You cannot really take someone's karma away from them temporarily ;P So the correct plan might be to forceably tank them up on slow release drugs via nanites so they cannot deal with their stun damage.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 30 2007, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 30 2007, 12:56 AM)
You cannot really take someone's karma away from them temporarily ;P

Attribute damage rules.

Which suck, but they do deprive you of karma (assuming you want the attribute level you had before)

~J
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mfb
post Sep 30 2007, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE (Critias)
And for those curious, right about the time MFB's adept and my sammie finished kicking to death six or eight troll gangers (while we were handcuffed and still recovering from Stun damage from our diceless, off-camera, capture), we decided it really was us that kicked ass, not just our high budget goodies.

we didn't kick all of them to death. as i recall, two of them died from GSWs to the face because somebody thought it'd be fun to use russian roulette as an interrogation tool.
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Cthulhudreams
post Sep 30 2007, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 30 2007, 12:56 AM)
You cannot really take someone's karma away from them temporarily ;P

Attribute damage rules.

Which suck, but they do deprive you of karma (assuming you want the attribute level you had before)

~J

Hitting them with a GM fiat drug that knocked all stats down to 1 for the purposes of resisting drain would probably have the same effect wouldn't it? Some sort of super sedative.
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venenum
post Sep 30 2007, 04:53 PM
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In Harlequin; Counterstroke, they had some kind of drug that made it really hard for the mages to concentrate, and made them do other stuff, you could always use that.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 30 2007, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 30 2007, 01:29 AM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 30 2007, 12:58 AM)
Attribute damage rules.

Which suck, but they do deprive you of karma (assuming you want the attribute level you had before)

Hitting them with a GM fiat drug that knocked all stats down to 1 for the purposes of resisting drain would probably have the same effect wouldn't it? Some sort of super sedative.

Well, yeah, but one of these is, however unwisely, in the rules. Your solution is a few miles over the border into "rocks fall, everybody dies"-land.

EDIT: I'm wrong! No, it would absolutely not have the same effect, since it's "for the purposes of resisting drain"—that means you can't buy the attributes back, they're still where they were but partly unusable, and since it knocks it straight to 1 they can't buy the attributes higher to fix it either.

venenum: I think the discussing is looking for something a bit more than wound mods or pepper punch in a fancy hat.

~J
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venenum
post Sep 30 2007, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
venenum: I think the discussing is looking for something a bit more than wound mods or pepper punch in a fancy hat.


I dont know, but for first edition, +10 TN to mental or magical actions, until givin an antidote, pretty harsh, it also made it difficult to go astral.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 30 2007, 06:58 PM
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Magic isn't equipment. Magic is innate ability. Taking it away should be about as difficult as taking away the max-strength Giant melee adept's ability to punch tanks to death. And this is why magic costs a hell of a lot at chargen.

That being said, if PCs are in such a position injecting the mage with a very small disposable anchor designed to zap him with a with a Deadly+6 Force 12 Death Touch if he should cast any spell.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 30 2007, 06:58 PM
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I guess it may be a difference of viewpoint—to me it still feels conceptually different from taking away a Rigger's RCD or a Street Houhei's PAC and hardened armor, but I guess I can see how you might consider it similar since it effectively deprives them of certain capabilities until they get new stuff (where the stuff happens to be an antidote instead of the actual equipment itself).

~J
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imperialus
post Sep 30 2007, 08:47 PM
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After a few runs my characters are usually designed with many layers of redundancy designed to allways give them a fallback for when Bad Things happen to them. His armoured Mercades gets blown to hell and they track him back to his primary residance and blow that up then he retreats to a rat infested apartment in Redmond with a small arsinal hidden inside. If that gets discovered he falls back to another bolt hole and so on until his last line of defense is a smuggling compartment in his cyberarm carrying a holdout pistol, a clean comlink, SIN and a certified credstick that he uses to skip town.
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nezumi
post Sep 30 2007, 09:05 PM
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Cthulhudreams and Venenum, good ideas. Somehow either reducing their ability to concentrate or their ability to resist drain, perhaps through some sort of implant or as the subject of a sustained spell or whatnot would be a reasonably effective method of doing that. Hmm... I'll have to put that in my evil GM toolbox.
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Kyoto Kid
post Sep 30 2007, 09:09 PM
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...this is why every Adept needs Unarmed Combat & Killing Hands. Like a Monk from that other game hard to take these away without geeking the character first.
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