Magic Rules, A Question Options

[Cryptkeeper]

How do you work out spell damage for damaging spells as it doesnt say in thier descriptions. Also how do you work out drain after casting any spell.

Thankyou for any help. :)

[Tanka]

The codes for damage and drain should be listed with the spell. Damage can be staged up as per normal staging rules (I haven't done Magic in a while, correct me if I'm wrong.) and drain can be staged down using Willpower and the same staging rules.

[moosegod]

What you're talking about tanka is mana spells.
Powerbolt, fireball, and their ilk are exactly like a gernade or rifle as far as damage resistance goes.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Tanka]

Told you I was no good with Magic. ;p

Give me an PhysAd or a Sammie/wanna-be Sammie and I'm good. Send me some mojo to work out and I get all messed up.

[Cryptkeeper]

i personally play adepts, the only reason why i'm asking is cuase i'm in the near future trying to run a game of shadowrun and i'm having trouble understanding magic and the matrix.
The rest is clear, tell me if i have this right...........
if a weapon does 6S damage it goes from the S marker on the condition table and works up 6 boxes minus armour (balistics modifier for firarms and impact for melee etc) sucessful body checks dont reduce boxes? they just make it so that enough successes can turn a 10d (example) to a 10S.
im sure thats how it works.

[Luke Hardison]

In a word, no. Not even close, really. Base damage is staged up or down by net number of successes on attacker's successes v. dodge test + body resistance test (typically). Armor does not reduce damage, but reduces target numbers for the body resistance test. Every two successes (also typically) moves the damage one stage.

For example, an attacker scores 4 successes on his pistols skill check.
His targets scores 2 successes on his dodge, and none on his resistance check.
So the attacker scores 2 net successes, and his (9M) Pistol does Serious damage (6 boxes)

[Cryptkeeper]

Yeah well i'm getting really pissed off with shadowrun cuase its even harder to understand than dnd and combat takes too long for the game to even be bloody fun.
I knew about the dodge body resistance net sucesses but about armour not reducing damage id have to say that i dont know becuase SR3 seems to use armour to damage reduction it does seem.

I'm this close to saying screw you to shadowrun becuase even for a pen and paper rpg its damn annoying to learn and whether its even worth the effort is starting to creep into my mind.

I do have other rpg experience such as Dungeons and Dragons, Call of Cthulhu and Gurps. But this game *shivers* is really starting to give me the shits.

[Kagetenshi]

Unless you're playing first edition for some reason, in which case armor is automatic successes for the body test.
Cryptkeeper, keep at it. The game is beautiful.
What armor does is reduces the power of the attack, IE the number the body test is rolling against. Armor in itself doesn't reduce damage, but it makes damage easier to resist.

~J

[Cryptkeeper]

Ive only got the Shadowrun 3rd Edition Core Rule Book.
i think its the 12th Printing Revised cuase this one was reprinted last year or somthing.

[Kagetenshi]

Rereading, you seem to be confused about what Power really is: Power has absolutely nothing to do with how much damage a given weapon does, or how many boxes you mark off. It's just how difficult it is to resist the damage done by a given weapon. For instance, something like West Nile Virus which is only deadly to those with weak immune systems might have a damage code of something like 2D (lower than that, as normal people with Body 3 aren't going to notice more than a nasty flu, but it's the same general idea). Armor makes it easier to reduce damage from weapons. Take a pistol shot, 9M, and a person with 3 Body; odds are they won't stage down and will take M damage, three boxes. On the other hand, if they have 6 Ballistic armor, they're now resisting 3M damage, and they have a pretty good chance of reducing the damage to L, or one box.
You always mark off boxes in increments of 1, 3, 6, or 10.

~J

Edit: the comment about 1st ed was facetious. Ignore it. :)

[Cryptkeeper]

ok thats fine.

it would probably help if i was given a quick gameplay example after ive whipped up a character.

[Ol' Scratch]

Here's a basic run-down about how Damage and Drain Codes work. Once you get the drift of this mechanic, the rest of the rules are pretty easy to understand because they all revolve around it.

Basically, a Damage Code represents two things. The target number you try to meet or beat on your dice roll, and how much damage you're dealing with.

A Damage Code's Power (the number) is the base target number (and you add modifiers to it based on other situations, such as Armor Ratings). When you roll your dice, you count how many dice hit that number or higher. Those dice are called your "Successes" and you can use them to increase or lower the amount of Damage you're dealing with.

A Damage Code's Damage Level (the letter) will end up telling you how many boxes you need to mark off on your Condition Monitor. Every two successes on your dice roll (which you determined using Power) will increase or decrease the Damage Level by one depending on what's going on. So Serious (6 boxes) would go down to Moderate (3 boxes).

Once you've figured out your final Damage Level, you mark off the number of boxes on your Condition Chart based upon that Damage Level. The number of boxes you mark off are:

Light = 1 Box
Moderate = 3 Boxes
Serious = 6 Boxes
Deadly = 10 Boxes

That's about it, I believe. Hopefully I didn't confuse you more than you already are. :) I remember what a pain it was trying to understand all of this stuff myself. But trust me, once you get the hang of it, you're really going to end up liking it I think. It's a pretty cool (if somewhat flawed in areas) system.

This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Nov 22 2003, 12:50 AM

[Cryptkeeper]

when you mean decreased by 1 do you mean box or going from moderate down to light for example?

[Kagetenshi]

All staging is done by damage levels, so moderate down to light.
And Doctor, you're off by a box on Moderate.

~J

[Cryptkeeper]

so for example a weapon does 9s Damage and the armour has a balistics of 4 that means you have to roll fives on your body and dodge roll? or just body? and it only stages down for every 2 successes right?

[BitBasher]

yes to everything except tthe dodge roll.

The TN to dodge is pretty much always 4, plus one for every 3 rounds thrown at you. Didging is far better than using body to reduce damage in some cases.

Example: If one or two bullets are shot at you, yout TN to dodge on combat pool dice is 4. if 3 to 5 bullets fly your way the TN is 5... so forth and so on. This means yes, your dodge dice can have a different target number than your damage resistance (body) dice.

You can use combat pool to either soak damage, OR dodge. It's your choice, do whatever is better for you.

[Kagetenshi]

Being damaged also ups the dodge TN, as does having excessive armor. But yes, if you have a weapon with 9S damage (a shotgun of some variety, most likely) and 4 ballistic armor you have to roll two 5s to reduce it to M, two more (4 total) to reduce to L, and two more (total of 6) to reduce to nothing.

~J

[Cryptkeeper]

ok thanks

[Lilt]

Ok: a few examples.

In this example, I'm playing a character with pistols skill 4 and 8 combat pool.
My character hates a character called Bob who has 4 body and 8 combat pool.

I surprise Bob, and shoot him in the back with a heavy pistol (9M)
I roll my 8 dice to attack (skill + combat pool) at a target number of 4
I get 4 successes on my attack roll
Bob can't dodge (or use any combat pool) as he dosen't know I'm shooting him
I stage the damage up using my 4 net successes (= 2 damage levels) to deadly
Bob is unarmoured, so he rolls his body of 4 against a TN of 9, getting no successes
Bob takes a deadly wound and starts bleeding to death. I finish him off

I shoot bob's clone in the back with a heavy pistol (9M)
This example is exactly like the above example, but this clone was wearing armour
Bob subtracts his armour rating (5) from the power (9), making his resistance TN 4
Bob rolls his 4 body against the TN of 4, getting 2 successes
Bob stages the damage down to serious with his 2 successes. He is hurt but he'll live
I curse and fire again...

After finishing-off the above clone, I go in search of more bobs.
I break into the house of another clone of Bob a coupple of blocks over.
Bob's clone was in-bed with no armor on, but he heard me breaking in so he is not surprised and can use his pool
I shoot Bob with 6 successes, he dodges with 4 combat pool getting 2 successes
I stage the damage up using my 4 net successes (= 2 damage levels) to Deadly (D)
Bob rolls his body of 4, plus 4 pool, against a TN of 9. He gets 1 success
1 success isn't enough to stage the damage down, you need 2.
Bob's character takes a deadly wound and starts bleeding to death. I finish him off.

Looking out of the window, Me and another one of Bob's clones notice eachother. He darts behind a truck as I try to shoot him.
Due to numerous TN penalties, I only get one success on my attack roll
Bob uses all 8 pool to dodge, but he dodges poorly and only gets one success
Furtunately for Bob; that success cancels my attack success, meaning that I miss him
Unfortunately for Bob; he hid behind a gas tanker, which I proceed to ventilate
The resulting explosion is so big that I don't even need to bother rolling Bob's Body; He's dead.

[RedmondLarry]

Tutorial on Casting a Combat Spell.

Cryptkeeper, here is an example of casting a Combat Spell so you'll know how to do it. Read along in the book the section on Spellcasting (p. 181 - 183) as you work though this example, and the text of the book should become clear. Ignore the parts of the book on Elemental Manipulation Spells and Astral Spellcasting for now.

Draco the Lion Shaman faces four Troll gang members in a long alley. They've surprised him and gotten a chance to run half the length of the alley before Draco gets a chance to cast a spell (GM draws the alley on a playing mat and positions figures for Draco and the Trolls).

He decides he has to cast an Area-Affect spell because there are so many of them. They are far enough away that he's not worried about getting himself in the spell, and he's got no friends in the alley to avoid either. The Trolls are spread out down the alley, but he knows he can get at least three of them in one spell since his area-affect spells are 6 meters in Radius (because his Magic Rating is 6).

He knows Stunball at Force 6 and Powerball at Force 6. (Both spells are described on page 191 of the book.) The player realizes that the Target Number (called TN) on the Sorcery Test for Powerball would be the Trolls' Body Attributes (likely to be high numbers), while the TN for the Stunball would be the Trolls' Willpower Attributes (likely to be lower numbers).

SPELLCASTING Preparation (p. 181)
The player decides Draco will cast the Stunball at Force 6, the highest he can. It'll be hard for the Trolls to resist, AND the TN for resisting Drain (see below) is already as low as it can be. He calculates that Casting the Spell at any lower force wouldn't make resisting drain any easier (see below).

The player chooses for Draco to cast the spell at Moderate Damage, knowing that with this spell at Moderate Damage Draco will have to resist Serious Drain (see below). He feels Draco is likely to avoid all damage from Drain this way, and fears what would happen if Draco were to cast the spell at any higher damage level.

Draco has 5 dice for Sorcery Skill (Spellcasting Test), 6 dice for willpower (Drain Resistance Test), 5 dice from Spell Pool available (can split up between the tests), and a 2 dice bonus to Combat Spells because he's a Lion Shaman. He decides to allocate Spell Pool with 2 out of the 5 dice going for the Drain Resistance Test, and the other 3 plus his Totem Advantage dice going to the Spellcasting Test. This allocation of Spell Pool gives 10 dice total for the success test, and 8 dice total for the Drain Resistance Test. This doesn't save any Spell Pool for anything else, so it better work.

The player chooses for Draco not to Walk and not to Run this Combat Turn, as that would make the TN for the Spellcasting Test higher.

The player considers withholding some dice out of the 10 selected for the Spellcasting Test to make the area-affect larger to get a chance at affecting the fourth Troll, but decides not to weaken his Spellcasting.

Spell Targeting (p. 181)
Draco sees the targets clearly in the alley. There are no modifiers to the Spellcasting Test for either cover or visibility. He centers the spell on the second Troll in line, knowing he'll easily affect the first and third with the area-affect.

Sorcery Test (p. 182)
Draco rolls his 10 dice for the Spellcasting Test. They come up
1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6. He breathes a sigh of relief when the GM informs him he doesn't need to re-roll any 6's, as that means none of the Trolls had a willpower higher than 7. The player chooses not to use Karma Pool to reroll failures -- this was a decent roll and he may need his Karma Pool later.

Spell Resistance Test (p. 183)
The GM knows the Trolls have Willpowers of 3 (nearest to Draco), 4 (middle one), and 5 (third in line). He secretly rolls their Spell Resistance Tests, each needing a Target Number of 6 (the Force of the spell) to attempt to reduce the damage.

The first troll resists (rolling Willpower) with a 2, 5, and 6. Getting one success.
The second resists with 2, 5, 5, 6. Also one success.
The third resists with 2, 2, 6, 6, 6. Three successes.

Spell Effect (p. 183)
Against Troll 1, Draco has 6 successes (his TN was only 3) and the Troll got one success. This is 5 net successes for Draco, and stages damage up by one level for each 2 net successes. Damage therefore stages from Moderate (what the spell was cast at) to Serious to Deadly. The 5th success has no extra affect. The Troll takes 10 boxes of Stun, which the GM describes as: "the first Troll falls forward onto his face in the alley sliding through the puddles and the garbage another 2 meters".

Against Troll 2, Draco has 5 successes (his TN was 4) and the Troll got one success. These 4 "net" successes are enough to stage up 2 levels with the same splash into the garbage.

Against Troll 3, Draco has 3 successes (his TN was 5) and the Troll has three successes. There is NO EFFECT. With Combat Spells if the Target rolls as many or more successes on resistance as the caster had, there is no effect.

Result: two Trolls down. Two left standing with NO damage -- one who resisted fully and the other was out of the area-affect.

Drain Resistance Test (p. 183)
The Drain Code for Stunball is "-1 (Damage + 1)". The first part of this code means that the Target Number for the Drain Resistance Test is one less ("-1") than the "standard" drain code of <Force divided by 2>. Since the spell was cast at Force 6, this results in a Target Number for the Drain Resistance Test of (6/2)-1, or 2.

The second part of this code ("Damage + 1") means the Spellcaster has to resist Drain of one level harder than the damage level chosen for the Spell. The spell was cast at a Moderate damage level, and therefore Draco has to resist Serious Drain.

Since Draco's Magic Rating is 6, any drain from Spells up to Force 6 will cause Stun damage.

Draco allocated 2 Spell Pool dice to the Drain Resistance Test earlier, so he has 8 dice (Spell Pool + Willpower) available for the Drain Resistance roll. He rolls
1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5.
With 6 successes against a drain TN of 2, the first two stage down the drain damage from Serious to Moderate, the next two stage it down from Moderate to Light, and the final two stage it down from Light to Nothing. Draco takes no Stun Damage from Drain, just barely.

After the Spellcasting, Draco takes a Free Action (p. 105) to Speak a short phrase. Waving his arms he says "pick up your chummers and leave, you hoop-fraggers, but threaten me again and I'll toast you with fire!".

The GM now decides what the Trolls will do, and the player hopes they'll leave but desperately hopes they'll at least pause so his Spell Pool can refresh in 3 seconds.

[Kagetenshi]

Nitpick: it's actually Speak a Word, and while it can be used for short phrases, I'd consider that longer than what can be said in a Free Action, especially as at a slightly fast speaking rate that takes me four seconds to say. A lot of GMs just assume people can say as much as they want, though, so you may be golden in most cases.

~J

[Cryptkeeper]

thanks would anyone out there be willing to give me a matrix example aswell?

[Kagetenshi]

http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=90

~J

[Cryptkeeper]

thanks again