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> Endowment + Materialisation, Ally Spirits...
Tomothy
post Oct 6 2007, 04:44 AM
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Could an ally spirit endow his astrally projecting mage with the Materialise power?

Edit: And if so, would the materialising mage then use his physical stats or continue to use his astral stats?
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Buster
post Oct 6 2007, 05:40 AM
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It's just one of the many omissions/errors in the game. I can't imagine a GM that would allow Endowment on either Astral Form or Materialization.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 6 2007, 08:54 AM
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Technically you have to have Astral Form before you can use Materialization. Also Allies don't get Endowment under any circumstances.

However, if you have two great form Task Spirits and you choose to use a service from both so that your astrally projecting mage can materialize - go for it. I mean, at that point you could have used the same services to materialize two great form task spirits, so I think you might be wasting your time. But you can do it.

-Frank
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Buster
post Oct 6 2007, 11:44 AM
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Ahoj Frank!

Wouldn't allowing an astral mage to materialize change the spirit of the game? (i can't resist posting bad puns :D )
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 6 2007, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE (Buster)
Ahoj Frank!

Wouldn't allowing an astral mage to materialize change the spirit of the game? (i can't resist posting bad puns :D )

Ahoj.

It's a powerful initiate only ability and the costs are very high. Consider that dual natured magicians used to be able to pop into the astral and pop back out into the physical at will (and yes, were available as player characters during that period if you used some of the more obscure supplements), this is small cheese.

The magician who materializes can do some pretty sneaky stuff, but not amazingly more than he could do by taking the two great form spirits he has with him and asking them to materialize and do stuff on his behalf. Remember that it's not "astral walk" or any of that crap - you can't actually take any physical objects with you when you dematerialize.

Dashle,
-Frank
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Tomothy
post Oct 7 2007, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE
Also Allies don't get Endowment under any circumstances.

Is that an errata?
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Jaid
post Oct 7 2007, 02:51 AM
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QUOTE (Tomothy)
QUOTE
Also Allies don't get Endowment under any circumstances.

Is that an errata?

no, it's a basic result of how allies work.

you can't *normally* get endowment as a power for any of the 10 spirit types available for traditions to summon, therefore no matter what your tradition your ally doesn't get to choose it from the list of all spirit powers available to your tradition. the only other way an ally can get a power is if it is explicitly listed as a choice for an ally spirit. endowment is not.

therefore, you cannot give your ally spirit the endowment power. even people who can invoke spirits can't give their allies the endowment power, because it isn't a power available to their tradition, just to great form spirits, and therefore your ally will never have endowment as a power (unless it becomes a free spirit, i suppose, in which case it would be possible).
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Tomothy
post Oct 8 2007, 03:04 AM
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Okies, I may not have read the part about ally spirits as thoroughly as I should have :P
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DTFarstar
post Oct 8 2007, 05:19 AM
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I wouldn't allow it in my game anyway, but is there anything specifically prohibiting you from invoking an ally spirit? I mean since it doesn't technically have a type I guess it wouldn't get a great form power, but what about the other stuff?

Chris
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 8 2007, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE (DTFarstar)
I wouldn't allow it in my game anyway, but is there anything specifically prohibiting you from invoking an ally spirit? I mean since it doesn't technically have a type I guess it wouldn't get a great form power, but what about the other stuff?

Chris

The section I wrote was specifically reworded by Rob in order to allow it. It doesn't have an available Great Form Power, but it can get all the other stuff - including the LOS (A) power - which is fairly impressive.

-Frank
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tisoz
post Oct 9 2007, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (Tomothy)
Is that an errata?

It's a FAQ answer with questionable reasoning, just as the explanation here is questionable. I say questionable because somehow the unique powers available to great form spirits dependant on the type of spirits are no longer powers available to that type of spirit. If TPTB do not want to make the allowance being proposed by this thread, then the unique power should have been called something other than a power, perhaps a quality or a bonus.

It seems even worse when other powers available to great forms are allowed to be assigned.
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hyzmarca
post Oct 9 2007, 01:30 AM
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While the reasoning is questionable, the effect is sound. Otherwise, a Second Grade conjurer could hold entire cities hostage. Nevermind that a First Grade conjurer can potentially hold cities hostages, he is extremely limited by services and drain.
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tisoz
post Oct 9 2007, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
While the reasoning is questionable, the effect is sound. Otherwise, a Second Grade conjurer could hold entire cities hostage. Nevermind that a First Grade conjurer can potentially hold cities hostages, he is extremely limited by services and drain.

Right. It is probably too powerful, so why even invent it? Then going back and trying to bogusly limit it from a single way of accomplishing the feat seems petty.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 9 2007, 06:10 AM
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The logic "I can theoretically use an initiate power to grant this power to my spirits after I summon them, therefore this power is available to spirits of my tradition and I can give it to my ally." is specious logic. Seriously, with that logic you could give any powers to your ally - after all at some point in the future you could make a spirit pact with a free spirit to gain some other power and then have a great form spirit (possibly from another tradition) grant Endowment to you and then you could give this power to your spirit!

I can't even wrap my mind around the twisted reasoning that would even suggest that you could give great form powers that your spirits might some day acquire to your ally spirits. It's not a property of the spirits in question - it's something which is subsequently stapled onto them by an initiate's metamagic technique. What's next? Giving your ally spirit Compulsion (Homicidal Mania) because theoretically one of your Guardian Spirits might get affected by the Corruption Metamagic and gain that power?

-Frank
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darthmord
post Oct 9 2007, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (DTFarstar)
I wouldn't allow it in my game anyway, but is there anything specifically prohibiting you from invoking an ally spirit? I mean since it doesn't technically have a type I guess it wouldn't get a great form power, but what about the other stuff?

Chris

Ally spirits have to have a type. This is because you can perform a metaplanar quest to get the formula for the spirit you want. The powers they can have aren't limited by their inherent type though like normal spirits because they are allies.

There is no "Metaplane of Generic Spirits" or "Metaplane of Allies". Each Metaplane corresponds with a spirit type.
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darthmord
post Oct 9 2007, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The logic "I can theoretically use an initiate power to grant this power to my spirits after I summon them, therefore this power is available to spirits of my tradition and I can give it to my ally." is specious logic. Seriously, with that logic you could give any powers to your ally - after all at some point in the future you could make a spirit pact with a free spirit to gain some other power and then have a great form spirit (possibly from another tradition) grant Endowment to you and then you could give this power to your spirit!

I can't even wrap my mind around the twisted reasoning that would even suggest that you could give great form powers that your spirits might some day acquire to your ally spirits. It's not a property of the spirits in question - it's something which is subsequently stapled onto them by an initiate's metamagic technique. What's next? Giving your ally spirit Compulsion (Homicidal Mania) because theoretically one of your Guardian Spirits might get affected by the Corruption Metamagic and gain that power?

-Frank

Perhaps a house rule that in order to be able to Invoke the Ally, the spirit formula for the Ally must include Invoking as a possible power slot cost so it can be performed at a subsequent binding ritual...

I agree with the synopsis regarding the specious logic. It's really a stretch to say that because I can perform this optional ritual to grant a power, all my spirits can have it without me doing the ritual.

As written in my hard cover SM, I would interpret it as the summoner can use Invoking during the first or subsequent Binding ritual to grant that power to the Ally.

But honestly, is Invoking really needed for an Ally? They are already quite powerful, especially in highly creative players' hands.

As a player, I could go either way. As a GM, I'd allow it if all my players wanted it but I'd warn them about cheese.
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hyzmarca
post Oct 9 2007, 06:55 PM
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One tiny issue with that logic is that Great Form powers are inherent to the spirit type. It seems to be something that the magician draws out of the spirit, rather than something that the magician grants to the spirit.

Creating an ally spirit with a power because you might one day be able to grant that power is a bit of a strawman. The issue is creating an Ally with a power that the magician already has the ability to grant to a spirit. If the Magician in question has the Corruption Metamagic, then I see nothing wrong with corrupting an Ally and giving it Compulsion (Homocidal Mania).
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 9 2007, 07:01 PM
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The powers they get are determined by the spirit. But so is the area engulf type. In either case though, it's a property of the Invocation. Spirits can't do it themselves.

Mario doesn't shoot fireballs. Fireflowers shoot fireballs.

QUOTE
Creating an ally spirit with a power because you might one day be able to grant that power is a bit of a strawman. The issue is creating an Ally with a power that the magician already has the ability to grant to a spirit. If the Magician in question has the Corruption Metamagic, then I see nothing wrong with corrupting an Ally and giving it Compulsion (Homocidal Mania).


How do you feel about people from possession traditions claiming the powers of creatures which their spirits may or may not possess at some point in the future? It's exactly the same.

Powers that your spirits have that come from some source other than their actual list are off limits. And obviously so, because there is literally no limit to what powers could potentially come from other sources.

-Frank
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darthmord
post Oct 9 2007, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The powers they get are determined by the spirit. But so is the area engulf type. In either case though, it's a property of the Invocation. Spirits can't do it themselves.

Mario doesn't shoot fireballs. Fireflowers shoot fireballs.

QUOTE
Creating an ally spirit with a power because you might one day be able to grant that power is a bit of a strawman. The issue is creating an Ally with a power that the magician already has the ability to grant to a spirit. If the Magician in question has the Corruption Metamagic, then I see nothing wrong with corrupting an Ally and giving it Compulsion (Homocidal Mania).


How do you feel about people from possession traditions claiming the powers of creatures which their spirits may or may not possess at some point in the future? It's exactly the same.

Powers that your spirits have that come from some source other than their actual list are off limits. And obviously so, because there is literally no limit to what powers could potentially come from other sources.

-Frank

I'd call foul on trying to grant powers to a spirit based on what critter the spirit *might* Possess at some future date.

I don't disagree with you.

What I was getting at with the quoted section of my post (in yours above) was if you wanted to Invoke your Ally, then make it an available power choice called "Able to be Invoked". Then at some point when the summoner Invokes said spirit, the power goes away / is (effectively) replaced by the power it gets via Great Form. You can't Invoke a spirit that's already Great Form.

It's not an auto grant power. You'd still have to survive the rolls. The spirit might resist you. The point is, it's not coming for the low low cost of free.

Basically, what I was getting at was that you'd have to build into the Ally spirit's design the ability to be Invoked just like you would the ability/power of Innate Spell.

Sure it's houserule turf but honestly, it's not going to hurt game balance if the player has to pay a price for a benny. It's called balance.
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