[X] My Assistant

[Buster]

True, but what about my idea of giving cybersams mental protection like the Invoked Memory Stimulator or other cyberware that gives them bonus dice to will resistance checks? That would kill people's complaints about mind mages and let non-essence cybersams keep their toys for themselves.

[DTFarstar]

I'm cautiously onboard, I would be against making it Canon though. That is what counterspelling is for. However, if you had a group that didn't want to play a mage or hire one or whatever it wouldn't be a bad idea to incorporate something like that into the game or otherwise you might just have to leave magic out of the game entirely or make sure they can get the drop on opposing mages. However, if you added this to the game world period then with a mage also on the team you would have people with 12-16 dice to resist magic which would be similar to giving them 12-16 dice to dodge bullets with without reducing actions or anything like that. I don't have anything against the Invoked Memory Stimulater, however I would probably have it reduce the number of turns between resistance by it's rating instead of just always every turn, that way it is more like most of the rest of the augments, scalable. I would max it's rating at 4 or 6 though or make it expensive or something because if someone is willing to take the drain from a really high force spell, they do need to get SOMETHING from it.

Chris

[Ravor]

I think I'd second being cautiously onboard, but I think I'd impose a "distraction mod" whenever the implant was turned on and restrict it to only working on the various Mindrape Spells.

Not for any real game balance reason mind you, I don't have access to my books for the time being so I'm looking at it from a "how might it work" angle.

[Buster]

All good points there. Mind control magic is always a devil to balance in any game system because it tends to come down to: "You failed your saving throw, you lose your character." Of course it isn't any worse than "You failed your dodge roll, your head explodes."

I'm not too concerned with anti-mind-control cyberware stacking with counterspelling because players really hate it when they have their characters taken away from them. And if the enemy team has a mage too, then it's fun fireball-vs-fireball action.

[Dender]

Well buster, I have to say I do agree magic can be WAY too powerful. Especially out of the box, considering that 4th pass is well within a starting mage's reach. It turned the mage of our game from Normal who is passable with guns to Badass.

Removing essence entirely from mundanes might lead to problems, sure. But then you can closer approach the Gunnm world (aka Battle Angel Alita). If thats the style of game you wanna run, Go For It! It certainly meshes up well if you wanted to run SR4 system further in the future.

It will, however make problems for Astral sight, and Dual Natured things, specifically Ghouls. And things that eat essence... Damn. Vamps just got hosed. Unless they can eat body instead.

As an alternate route, if you really feel characters can't cram enough cyber in, increase the amount of essence without changing any of the other rules. Maybe to 10. every point still loses the mage a point of magic, but NOW people can cram in a buttload more cyber.

hmm... I like that option alot more. 10 essence.

But where will everyone plug in at night?

[Cain]

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the ramifications of second-hand ware. With no essence penalty, there's nothing stopping a starting character from loading up on all kinds of powerful implants for half-price. I know I could easily create a cyber monster under those conditions, one that'd easily break a game.

Mages are powerful, true. But I don't think they're *that* powerful, so they need to be balanced by turning everyone else into a cybermonster. Suddenly ever corp sec guard is as wired as a medium-grade street samurai. No-cyber mundane character concepts become even more pointless than they already are. Basically, under this condtion, everyone may as well become a full-conversion Borg.

[darthmord]

In the wall outlet I'd imagine... or perhaps the Grid.

:cyber:

[Fortune]

[DTFarstar]

I'm going to start another thread to try and compile peoples poor experiences with magic being way too powerful out of the box. I've just never really seen it, but I play with a bunch of responsible guys who fear me and thus don't break my game.


Chris

[Stahlseele]

why not just make essence be based on (natural)body+(natural)intelligence or some derivate there of?
the aura is being described as reflecting the union of body and soul . . so it would fit . .

[laughingowl]

The closest thing to this I could even remotely think of is a non-awakened:

Self-Realization:
Can not have: 'awakened' talents.

Each rank of this allows the non-awakened inviddual the ability to offset one point of essence loss do to body modification (cyberware, bioware, nanoware, genetech, etc).



Priced the same as initiating/submerising (plust the cost of buying the point of essence or make it a two step process).

I might consider allowing some kind of 'meta-mundane' features also.


The ONLY problem I have with magic/techno is the unlimtied growth versus very fixed growth of a pure mundane.

Though probably the majority of the campaigns this would never be a factor I would like to see some kind of 'unlimited' growth for a mundane.

[Apathy]

I'd worry that, with essence removed as a consideration, all high-end mundane characters would end up looking the same. As it is I can't get every enhancement in the book - it won't all fit! In order to really excel at something I'll have to specialize and give up something else. But once essence is gone, I might as well get it all if I can afford it.

[ixombie]

I wouldn't try to use this rule in a normal SR4 game. The perception that mages are too powerful is just that, a perception. As such, enacting a massive, sweeping house rule is not likely to fix anything that's broken, it's more likely to create huge new problems where none existed beforehand.

However, I think this would be a good way to go in a magic-free version of the SR4 setting. If you want to play a Cyberpunk 2020 style game, only using Shadowrun's vastly improved rules, taking away essence would be a fine idea.

There are still things you should deal with though: immune system weakening, cyberpsychocis, maintenance, slower healing... In short, even if you're going for an all-cyber-no-magic game, cyber should not be free. Even the most pro-cyber game would be boring if it didn't deal with the ramfications of heavy cyber. Even Ghost in the Shell, where people can replace their entire body on a whim, ascribes serious consequences to heavy cybering...

[DTFarstar]

*nods at ixombie* From my experience, all the original house rule here would do is shift you power hungry morons from playing mages all the time because they are easier to break to playing non-awakened characters. It is almost all in the player, though if you to want to just tone down magic I still vote for my previous can't soak spell drain below 1.

Chris

[Buster]

[Dender]

Bloodzilla... fear...

The problem comes from games where players want their characters to be purposed for a specific ability, then realize that the other side of the magic/cyber fence deals with it better, and can do more.

I play in a "ultra future SR" game set in like 3576. Cyberware Ess. cost is balanced by our currency getting a 10:1 exchange. Could load to gills if our money was worth anything!

And you know what? I Still play a mage. Without cyber past a plug and being genecrafted for high g environments. Granted I'm so powerful I've offered to donate my karma to the party till they catch up. GM trusts me to not lord it over the party, and I've taken on more of a semi-NPC guide role.

Nothing's so intimidating as a wolf going Koolaid Smash through a plasteel wall

[Jaid]

[DTFarstar]

*shrug* Depends on what we are talking about, they are morons from a gaming perspective, but they are at least dedicated. I haven't done anything insane yet in SR, but I can up with some truly sick builds for DnD back when I used to play. So... I consider myself intelligent, I don't know what that says about other people, but the reason I said moron is because coming up with Bloodzilla or Pun-Pun takes alot of work and some intelligence, USING them in a game takes a certain amount of idiocy that more than cancels it out. I tend to stay in the background and command as my awesome characters to avoid breaking the game and killing the group by killing the fun.

Chris

[DTFarstar]

I don't know who has become lazy lately, but about a year ago when I was around alot on CharOp, it took more like 12-24 hours to break the hell out of something in a new sourcebook.

Chris

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I for one have always been wary of the imbalance that mages bring to the table. If not "out of the box" like everyone says here, then certainly at higher karma levels.

I think the most effective rule we've come up with has been to ignore all fluff about the "magus gene" or whatever pukatronic term they use for it. If you have the spirit of a wolf, Wolf will call you. Nitty gritty mechanic-wise, this means anyone can initiate, instead of classifying mages as some sort of master race that you have to be born into. I wouldn't actually recommend this, because everyone I've ever mentioned it to outside my own group (and also some members of my new group) has flipped out about the idea. The idea would be that you only let street sams initiate if they're RPing it well.

Another suggestion, that would also require some actual roleplaying, would be to just run the type of game where bad things happen to mages, especially if they do bad things. Certainly talk it over with your players to make sure it's cool with everyone beforehand, but it's perfectly reasonable to have a game world where mentor spirits don't approve of their gifts being used to brainally rape people. Maybe your mob mind spell is particularly likely to attract the wrong kinds of astral entities. Again, you gotta find out what your group is comfortable with. It doesn't necessarily need to be a modification of the game as much as a modification of the way you play the game.

[Buster]

I agree with you about disliking the magus gene master race thing, but how would letting mundanes initiate help? Initiation just augments magical abilities, it wouldnt give a mundane any extra powers or anti-magic abilities.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Well, there's the shielding metamagic (I'm still not entirely sure how all this 4th ed. stuff works). But mostly, it just makes the magic more egalitarian. People can complain less about brainal rape if suddenly their only excuse for not doing it themselves is that they're too lazy to spend the karma to initiate.

[Fortune]

[hyzmarca]

Mundanes can use counterspelling, if you get creative with Street Magic. A mundane can potentially summon any Free Spirit without effort and make a deal with it. Make a deal with one that has Magical Guard and the mundane faustian can obtain that power and, with it, the ability to learn and use Counterspelling so long as the pact is maintained.

[Adarael]

Dude.
Hey.
That's genius.