 Houserule: No Essence for non-Awakened characters, Rise of the Muggles |
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 Oct 11 2007, 03:57 AM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813  |
hmmm... now where's that thread (i think it was AH who posted it) with the houserules for allowing mundanes to have limited use of magical skills (things like assensing skill but only usable when in astral shallows or otherwise able to astrally perceive via outside source, astral combat for same, binding but only when using to bind free spirits, etc...)
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Oct 11 2007, 08:02 AM
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#52
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't get how having access to the Magical Guard Power lets you learn and use the Counterspelling Skill yourself (as opposed to merely gaining the benefits of the Spirit's Power). |
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Oct 11 2007, 10:35 AM
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#53
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Because the one and only benefit of the Magical Guard power is the ability to learn and use the Counterspelling skill. It does nothing else and is completely useless if the critter (or character) in question does not have a Counterspelling skill.
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Oct 11 2007, 02:53 PM
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#54
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Right. It somehow didn't register that the character was actually gaining the Power, and not just use of or access to the Power. D'oh! :D
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Oct 11 2007, 09:05 PM
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#55
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Although I don't have access to my books right now, I don't think mundanes being able to learn Assensing in an astral shallow is a house rule Jaid, I'm fairly sure Street Magic mentioned a school or something in Hong Kong that was teaching mundanes with way too much Nuyen and not enough sense.
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Oct 11 2007, 09:13 PM
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#56
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
that learning those things with astral shallows and the such has been there since at least 3rd ed o.O
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Oct 11 2007, 09:45 PM
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#57
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Fair enough, for some reason it didn't stick with me in Third like it has in Fourth, oh well.
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Oct 11 2007, 09:45 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yeah, it makes so much sense that you'd think it would be allowed, but it isn't. |
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Oct 11 2007, 09:57 PM
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#59
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233 |
I think we have a houserule that finds a happy medium between sammies who can't progress and the obvious problem with eliminating essence: initiation increases your essence by one point. There's a bit of a flavor problem...I'm not wild about sammies who have to meditate to stuff in another chunk of ware, but it does allow sammies to progress like everyone else.
Whether this puts everyone on the same footing remains to be seen. |
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Oct 11 2007, 10:05 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,072 |
TC:
I dont think its necessary but my Idea was maybe to give mundane characters 1.5x more essence. Sorry if this has been said. Not really reducing essence or adding essence but say reducing essence costs for mundance characters by 25% - 50% percent. Some damn thing like that. Or maybe give mundanes and extra free point or two of essense before it starts subtracting from their standard. Essence 6(9). Which is the same thing as giving them a 25% reduction I guess. Oops :) In game: Magical beings have more sensitive systems? Etc. etc. I mean what the hell, I'm reaching. What about making "whole" creatures and magically active creatures more "bright" i.e. easier to hit with spells (other than physical). While things with screwy/dead auras are harder to sling on. Nothing big (sort of like a fake +1 or +2 Will.) ( :D I'm not really up on magic rules...) |
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Oct 12 2007, 05:48 AM
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#61
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
*shrugs* Aye, I could have swore it was allowed under Street Magic's rules, but I don't have access to my books right now to double check.
Oh well, if it isn't allowed under RAW then I'll happily house-rule it into my games. :cyber: |
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Oct 12 2007, 02:20 PM
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#62
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
By definition, mundanes who are in Astral Shallows fall into the set of "characters who are capable of Astral Perception". So do dual natured beings, characters with the Astral Perception Quality, astral natives, targets of the Astral Gateway power, and characters whose physical bodies are plot-deviced onto the astral plane. |
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Oct 12 2007, 10:08 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
it still isn't noted that characters other than magicians and mystic adepts can use it.
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Oct 12 2007, 10:29 PM
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#64
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Except that they are a great many characters who both have the assensing skill and lack any Awakened Quality stated in SR4. If there are canon stated characters who are not magicians or mystic adepts or adepts with Astral Perception yet have Assensing then we can assume that the list was not exhaustive and merely listed all of the types of PCs who could have Astral Perception using only the options presented in the BBB. That list can be disregarded, since it was referring to the types of PCs that can Astrally Perceive rather than to the types of characters which can have the Assensing Skill. It explicitly states that any character who can Astrally Perceive can learn Assensing, and later supplements give us PCs who can Astrally perceive but who do not have the listed qualities. To put it another way, there isn't a definitive list of the types of characters who can fire a pistol. Should we then assume that only magicians can fire pistols? If it isn't explicitly forbidden and it is reasonable then it is permitted. |
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Oct 12 2007, 10:44 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yes, but access to magical skills *is* explicitly limited. of which assensing is one. don't get me wrong, i 100% agree that it's a dumb rule. technically, however, that's how it works. for the record, however, i personally would encourage the use of *all* of the proposed house rules i mentioned, basically allowing magical skills for mundanes, but only useable when the mundane is otherwise enabled to use them (binding free spirits, for example). |
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Oct 12 2007, 10:49 PM
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#66
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The rule states characters who can use astral perception, the parenthetical list does not matter and cannot be considered exhaustive. Therefore, it is explicitly permitted by the canon rules. Mundanes learning Assensing in astral shallows is not a house rule for this reason.
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Jan 7 2008, 06:50 PM
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#67
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
So 90% of geeks are sociopaths? Geeks: 1: See themselves as superior, intellectually, to joe average. 2: Feel rejected and margginalised by society for their differences. 3: See themselves as diferent from normal people. If that is enough to cause high percentage chance of sociopathy, maybe Pat Pulling and Jack Chick are right |
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Jan 7 2008, 07:07 PM
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#68
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
we're not 90% sociopaths . . 100% of the rest of the world is stark raving bonkers!
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Jan 7 2008, 10:07 PM
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#69
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
About the only fix is a massive increase in the difficulty of mind control spells, like required net hits on the opposed test = Willpower or even harsher changes.
I´m rather afraid of the chars my players would create if there was no essence. |
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Jan 7 2008, 10:12 PM
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#70
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
tell me about your reaction when the first one comes to play a cyborg *g* especially with arsenal on the way and hopefully some fun options for the drone-body . . i'd likely try and built Johnny 5 or something like that *g* |
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Jan 7 2008, 10:14 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I've considered assuming everyone is awakened by default, with a free magic of 1. Based on some ideas I've seen on pricing all the magical abilities similar to adept powers. You can choose to chrome up and ignore this, or not.
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Jan 7 2008, 10:14 PM
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#72
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Awakened Master Ninja Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 946 Joined: 30-January 07 From: CalFree Member No.: 10,844 |
I'm all for this. It would allow importing in to SR the Cyberpunk 2020 Full Borg Conversions (see Chromebooks 1 to 4). Just use their Humanity rules instead of Essence as a hindering factor. Essence can stay for Mages, Adepts, and Technomancers (I don't care what anyone says, these guys are obviously magical to be able to do what they do so I count them as Awakened).
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Jan 8 2008, 12:24 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
If getting augmented to superhuman speed and strength and intelligence could make a person aloof and incapable of connecting with "lesser" (slower, weaker, stupider) people, to the point of sociopathy or inability to control one's temper... then
a) how does that result in *death* after installing 6 Essence worth of augmentation b) how is it that mages, who can also become superhumanly strong, smart and fast, and can also fly, throw lightning bolts, and control people's minds, do not also develop "god complex" issues? Humans are usually flexible general-purpose entities, and overspecializing can have bad effects on self-perception, and turning one's self into a specialized killing machine could have psychological consequences. An unaugmented human who spends all day, every day, training to become an unstoppable killer might have issues too. I'm not saying that comes as a package deal with, say, spending time at a shooting range and a martial arts school; but I don't recommend doing so *to the exclusion* of connection with friends and community. Bruce Wayne is rarely portrayed as a fully mentally healthy person. He's made some unusual choices about what to do with his life, and they have some social costs. I don't see how that's worse with augmentation. It's probably general to any form of becoming an unstoppable killing machine. The veteran who can't stop checking for snipers even when he's at a shopping mall in Peoria, may have a worse problem than the one with the artificial arm. (Not that either of those veterans has God complex; the one who's stuck with battlefield anxiety has a very different problem.) If magic did return to a 1% Awakening level in 2011, I'd give the latter veteran better odds of attunning to magic, than the former. If the only issue in your particular game is mind control, then make a change that's specifically about mind control. For example, target gets *double* willpower, because they instinctively resist with all they've got, a reaction not triggered by less invasive (even if lethal) forms of magic. |
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Jan 8 2008, 05:49 AM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I have contemplated giving a free use of edge vs. mind control spells. Also, the removing from humanity part is just losing part of your body, which is part of your soul/essence/whatever in SR. The Sociopathy is that as good as the neural sensors are, they are just sensors. Cybereyes are supposed to be like watching everything through a camera. With a cyberlimb, you get sensation through it from sensors which you can turn off if something is unpleasant, and unless you program it in, you won't ever feel fatigue in that arm, something humans are just used to. I don't think it would be a big deal if you had it installed as a kid, or whatever, but if you are old enough to be used to your body, then having all these sensations that are just a little....off is going to be disassociating and the further you are from yourself the less likely you are to consider the consequences of your actions. I mean, if you had a real arm and you knew doing something would cause you intense pain, but you wanted to do it, you might not do it. If you had a cyberarm where you could turn off the sensors and just deal with a trip to the doc later or fix it yourself... probably you would do it. The more you indulge yourself the easier it is to further indulge you own urges. We all have the capability in ourselves to be horrible people, and in a lot of situations consequences are all that stop you. Please don't turn this into a moral debate, just explaining things the way I see it. If you have more faith in humanity, then it doesn't make much sense. Then again, applying faith in humanity to shadowrun just strikes me as wrong somehow.
Chris |
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Jan 8 2008, 06:33 AM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Yeah, that's why I'm rather glad they removed the mandatory social penalty for various degrees of essence loss for 4th edition. Cyberpsychosis is still around, but I'm fine with that since it's a negative quality that typically only comes up with characters below a single essence point and doesn't necessarily afflict everyone. Obvious cyberware could still cause the "character is imposing in some way", "Doesn't have the right look" or "is wielding a weapon" penalty, but the same goes for shamanic masks, ritual talismans and obvious magic. Certainly the twisted paths bear witness to the fact that the Awakened are often times deeply affected by how different they are from everyone else. Anyway, I'm happy as long as the RAW leaves plenty of room for the context of the situation to determine whether or not cyberware and magical abilities are a social liability or not rather than just flatly slapping you in the face with a penalty. |
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