[X] My Assistant

[Riley37]

Regardless of faith in humanity, that is a good explanation of a phenomenon that a) can lead to desensitization, and b) is particular to cyberware. However, it's particular to some kinds of augmentation, and does not apply so much to other forms of augmentation which still have essence cost. Why would, for example, an improved liver cause me to lose empathy or care for consequences? There are augmentations that if you did them on me, I might not even notice for a long time (tracheal filter, for example, since I generally don't inhale toxins much anyways).

If it's useful for game balance to limit augmentation, then immune system consequences and system shock strike me as the better route. Every time you remove an organ or limb, your body has a risk of things going wrong, and it adds up with repeated surgeries. Another way of limiting augmentation is to make it more expensive, and I figure that even with super future tech, removing your friggin' eyes and wiring replacements into the optic nerve ought to cost thousands of nuyen just for the surgery even if the hardware itself is cheap. If it costs karma to bond a focus, it could also cost karma to learn how to properly use cyberlimbs; they don't NEED to be "plug and play".

Imagine if learning skills only took time and training! People would exploitively learn skills to a game-breaking extent! But we don't require an essence cost for learning skills...

[Jhaiisiin]

[Stahlseele]

yeah, one of my main problems too . . a frigging torso takes away less of your essence than some wires along your spine and into your brain basically . .

[Whipstitch]

The cybertorso is essentially a grafted exoskeleton designed to shore up physical weaknesses while providing as much "normal" sensory feedback and function as is possible; it's rare and most likely used for people who have undergone catastrophic injury and cannot afford things like say, a new sternum or intensive physical therapy to recover normal function but are still entitled to medical care. Wired reflexes is jacking virtually your entire nervous system straight into overdrive via incredibly invasive surgery that catapults you into a crazy inhuman adrenaline high; in this case it's the final result as much as the surgery that costs so much. You could still make an argument that the former is still worse than the latter, but I think your description's a bit needlessly reductive.

[Stahlseele]

probably, but my opinion still stands, especiall when regarding the difference between a CYBORK(basically only Brain in Jar piloting own Body like drone and a Cyberzombie that has only Level 3 Wired Reflexes(5 Essence[SR3]) Smartlink(0,5 Essence[SR3] and a full package of Eye-Stuff(1,20Essence[SR3]) plus the now needed whatsitcalledthingie that lets you remember that you are YOU . . and such an Cyber-Zombie with that getup is at about -1 Essence . . while the Cybork retains 0,2 Essence if i am not mistaken . .
btw, i am using the SR3 essence costs because i can't for the life of me remember those for SR4 . .

[Moon-Hawk]

[Whipstitch]

Uh, your last post was a bit hard to understand, Stahlseele, so maybe I'm totally missing your point, but here goes.

There's a very fine line between a fatal injury and one that "merely" leaves you comatose and terribly injured, yet I believe it's fair to say that the end result is very different, considering that in some cases the latter can make a remarkable recovery. This isn't the Princess Bride where mostly dead means a little alive and a quick trip to Miracle Max pops you out as good as new (provided that you wait 15 minutes for full potency and don't go swimming for a good hour, of course). A brain-in-a-jar goes through minimal socialization and lives a completely diffent life than any of us; they have known virtually nothing but 100% artificial sensory information for their entire existence. A cyberzombie has literally been thrown across the brink between life and death only to be dragged back kicking and screaming. The big difference between a "cyberzombie" and disturbed "cybork" isn't the essence total so much as the fact that one is perhaps a disturbed individual suffering from a range of mental disorders (usually depersonalization and depression, most likely) while the other is a walking corpse held together by duct tape, Zulu ritual magic, self-destructive impulses and unfocused rage. I rather doubt that "topping off" their essence total somehow would suddenly be enough to make them love life a big huggy bunch.

[Stahlseele]

[DTFarstar]

Stahlsteele, it seems like the major problem you have is with particular essence costs. I don't think there are many people that will argue that Wired 3 costs an insane amount of essence. It is one of the few houserules I have. Wired 3 costs 3 Essence and 33,000 :nuyen: . Also keep in mind that while yes, you can be a cyberzombie with all second hand or just basic brand ware, it is generally assumed in the fluff that if you have the knowledge and resources to cyberzombie someone up, then you are going to stuff as much delta cyber and bio into someone as possible.

Chris

[Stahlseele]

nah, i don't really mind the high costs of wired reflexes . . i have yet to build ONE character(aside from the proof of concept starting character with fixed reaction of 31 or something along the lines) that uses ANY form of wired reflexes . . okay, maybe one rigger had them but usually i like the boosted reflexes "cyber"ware more nd ususally don't need to go above level 2 as we are playing SR3 and in our group boosted is compatible with synaptic accellerator that one of course has to aqquire later in the game *g*
what i do mind is the fact that SR4 states that an all steel body piloted by a little bit of grey goo has more essence than a body that has about 90% of natural flesh left but has some wires stuck into it . . and of course i agree that when making a zombie you usually go the whole 9 yards with delta . .

[Moon-Hawk]

[Stahlseele]

yes, now you're thinking more along my trainwreck of thought *g*

[DTFarstar]

It just doesn't bother me much because the rules for essence function fairly well outside some weird interactions like that. I would love to offer some comparable SR3 example, but it was sadly before my time.

Chris

[Stahlseele]

Cranial Cyber-Decks or implanted Rigger-Stuff . . wired Reflexes, Titan Bone-Lacing . . it's kinda hard to do such things in SR3 because there IS nothing like the Cybork in SR3 *g*

[Jaid]

actually, the SR4 CCU (that's the thing with the cyborg in it) is iirc about .5 meters long by .3 meters diameter iirc. it's small, sure, but certainly much larger than just your brain.

also, iirc it says that you could (potentially) install more 'ware, based on GM approval, without it costing any more essence.

[Stahlseele]

if you put the ware into the non meat parts and they don't require a direct neural connection, of course.
if you were to add in any more cyber/bio that needs to be wired into the Brain(pretty much all that is left) then it costs essence as usual or am i wrong again?
0,3x0,5m? is about twice the size of a head i think without actually measuring anything . . so that's basically just about enough room for the brain, a bit of spinal cord and electronics/safety measures for the grey goo.

[arathian]