My mage pwns yur streetsam!, Arcane vs Mundane fight to the death! Options

[Buster]

People on this forum have been complaining for years that mages are just too powerful and they need to be nerfed. Perversely, the recent forum habitués now seem to have an opposite stance. But I have yet to see a full build that does what people say they can do.

Does anyone have an "ubermage" or an "ubercybersam" that can wipe out the opposition in "normal" arenas like in a street/bar/office short-to-medium range firefight? What if both characters have to pass through wards, guards, and security systems to reach their target?

Assuming each character is chargen+35karma+50000-no-availability-limit-nuyen, and both have made the usual preparations for the run, who would win a fight like that? Opinions are nice, but builds are better.

It's time to see what you got!

This post has been edited by Buster: Oct 10 2007, 01:37 PM

[HappyDaze]

[swirler]

Well, as much as I've enjoyed playing mages of all varieties, I still have to stand by the one SR adage that was burnt into my brain early on. More important than "Never Deal with a dragon", or "never trust an elf."
it is this:

"It only takes one shot to geek a mage."

[Gelare]

[noonesshowmonkey]

The last time I ran we faced a mage. Our mage mind-controlled the opposing Street Samurai and had him hack the opposing mage down in a single stroke from a katana... A strength 12 cyberarm with 5 skill and Edge can have that effect.

So... uh...

mage > street samurai < mage

or rather mind control = busted < katana > mage < ares predator to the noggin.

Whatever. Just shoot the fraggin mage in the head and sling some mojo at the Street Samurai.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway

[darthmord]

[DireRadiant]

Shadowrun is all series of controlled arena combats where opponents go one on one. Therefore this thought experiment is bound to have valid results.

[Buster]

[Kyoto Kid]

...two words...

Thor Shot™

...takes both Uber Mage & Uber Sammy out with no muss, no fuss and no dirty rings. :grinbig:

[Fortune]

[Adarael]

Whoever sees the other one first.

No, seriously. If one gets the drop on the other, you can be pretty much assured they're dead. A horde of bound spirits doesn't matter if they have a hard time finding the target.

[Cheops]

[Jaid]

[mfb]

i don't believe that the OP is talking about having the mage and the street sam fight each other to the death. i believe he's talking about general lethality--which one is more effective at taking out their opposition in any given situation.

[Adarael]

Huh, I guess you're right.

There's no way to answer that question. At least no answer other than "How many kilos of C4, how many grenades, and how many drones do they both have?" SO much of effectiveness comes down to proper planning and getting the drop on people that it's like asking "Which is more deadly, a Nuke Sub or an Aircraft Carrier?"

They BOTH kill you plenty. Are we gonna count the atoms of the target that are left after both have their way? Measure the blood splat?

[Buster]

[Tarantula]

Well, in a they just spotted each other and go fight, both spend edge to go first, then its down to initiative, sam probably has wired, mage probably has increased reflexes. If the sam goes first, he drops the mage, if the mage goes first, he drops the sam.

[Whipstitch]

My money's on a well-built Mage. It's easier than people think to make a Mage that goes first. Intuition for a drain attribute, Reaction Enhancers, Cybereyes and the Increase Reflexes spell can make for a deadly combination. It's possible to make a Samurai that's just as fast, but at the end of the day mundanes can't counterspell but mages can still go on full defense, so it's arguable which character has more "survivability", especially when dealing with Ork mages who can easily have 4+ body with few sacrifices.

In all honesty, however, I've always felt that such things are beside the point. I mean, yes, my mage can clear a whole squad of Will 3 mooks simply by splitting my casting pool in half and casting two overlapping Force 6 StunBalls and still probably soak the drain, but I usually pass on the opportunity. Why? Because the bloody samurai can do the same thing with a couple of grenades and he doesn't have to risk drain at all nor does he end up leaving multiple astral signatures laying around. I know a lot of people don't worry about ritual magic all that terribly often, but I can tell you from experience that you do -not- want corp mages targeting your Mage with a Force 8 Ignite spell just as the Red Samurai are kicking down your apartment door.

[DTFarstar]

Honestly, in a scenario where they just happen upon each other, not a run, I give the ups to the SS, he's probably got a higher initiative, because only insane mages wander around sustaining or having sustained on them a force 4 improve reflexes all day when not running. Can we say Focus Addiction? Sammy pulls out his Pred and pops 2 in the mages skull or cuts him in half with his other licensed weapon. HOWEVER, given proper preperation, the only thing that can reasonably stop a mage is another mage. That is how magic rolls in every system I've ever seen, and why it is so hard to do combats/contests like this. In a barfight? Sammy wins unless he screws the pooch on initiative. In an arena combat? Someone is getting spirit swarmed while someone else is improved invis and concealed stealthing around with his skillwired stealth. Or for that matter the mage just summons(not binds) a Force 8 Guardian spirit, first aids the drain away then when it is time for the run he's like "Possess me!" and channels him while beating the living crap out of everything. It all depends on the situation and you have to be really specific. Sammy's are ready for anything they can handle nearly all the time, barring needing heavy duty munitions, Mages take a little while to gain momentum, but given prep time they obliterate the opposition. That is the general nature of physicality vs. magic in most systems, the physical is always there, the magic is more powerful, but it takes awhile.

Chris

[Whipstitch]

There's still the sticky issue of Reaction Enhancers, however. It's unfortunate for mundanes, but a mage built for speed isn't really at much of a disadvantage compared to a Samurai, especially since they likely only need a single round to drop a Samurai who doesn't have counterspell support.

[Jaid]

[Whipstitch]

If the Samurai goes first and if the Mage fails his Full Defense rolls. Granted, full defense is only a good move for the Mage if he has his Increase Reflexes up or Edge to spend on gaining an extra pass, but a Samurai at best has just his Will and Edge pool to defend against a manabolt if he doesn't have outside help. Either character only needs a single pass to kill but one cannot use his extra passes on defense while the other can. That's a pretty big disadvantage even in a game where it pays to be the aggressor.

[KarmaInferno]

Why would the sammy be wasting his time with bullets?

Explosives are much more certain to do the job.


-karma

[Whipstitch]

Mages have access to explosives too. Hell, the logic tradition mages could probably do a better job than the samurai and could remote detonate with Magic Fingers if they wanted to. And that's really the only true imbalance between mundanes and Awakened: The game is a skill based rather than class based system, yet one set of characters has an entire world opened up to them that remains closed off to everyone else right from chargen. It's an issue that's held in check only by the GM and the fact that people are likely to move onto new characters well before karma is so plentiful that mundanes lack for advancement options.

PS: I don't actually think Mages really need nerfing or anything. They die just like everyone else, so they're not truly gamebreakers.

[Adarael]

You run into the dead wall of "How many actions can you take per pass?"

The mage can throw the manabolt...OR he can throw the explosives. He can't do both, unless he has spirits throw the explosives.

Which opens the door to the street sam's drones throwing his explosives.