Ultrasound and invisibility |
Ultrasound and invisibility |
Oct 12 2007, 09:49 AM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
Right, so, the ultrasound cyberware/vision enhancement works by sending out high-pitched noises and building a map of the area based on how long it takes stuff to bounce back. It turns this into a visual overlay which enables you to bypass some vision modifiers.
Now, I get that it bypasses Improved Invisibility, because that works (by RAW) by bending light, not high-pitched sound waves. But why does it work against regular Invisibility? Given that the Mana spell works by affecting your mind, how come it doesn't affect your perception of the visual information created by your ultrasound system? |
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Oct 12 2007, 09:55 AM
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#2
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
the same reason why you can still HEAR someone with usual invisibility cast upon them . . BECAUSE!
It makes you think you can't SEE them . . and as ultra sound works over hearing basically and is just an visual interpretation of the things you hear you can "see" someone with normal invis turned on just fine . . |
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Oct 12 2007, 10:31 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
But:
If I was sitting at my security desk and you walked by under Invisibility, I wouldn't be able to see you on my monitor (showing the feed from the camera overlooking the area where I'm sitting, blissfully unaware of you walking past) because of the Invisibility spell's effect. But if I'm looking straight at you while you're under Invisibility, I can still see you on the AR overlay from my ultrasound sight? Whuh? |
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Oct 12 2007, 10:59 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
My take on invisibility (and my GM’s) is that invisibility affects the MIND. This means that even if you DID use ultrasound vision you would still not SEE me as your mind refuse to aknowledge the ultrasound image of me in your LOS because the spell fools you in refusing to see me.
The same would apply to a drone sending you an image of me walking past you when under the influence of the spell as your mind refuse to aknowledge that I’m there no matter how much the drone insists that I AM there – in this case I would say that a logic or intuition test from target is required as they are not stupid. They would still be able to hear and touch me but anything that is piped through the EYES (which means anything linked with imagelink, cybereyes etc) would not find me. On the other hand, if a remote sensor sees me and displays it on a screen the target would see me on the screen but not in his LOS as the sensor is not affected and that would raise suspicion as they could just reach out and touch the area where im supposed to be according to the display - (unless the improved version is used and fools the sensor). |
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Oct 12 2007, 11:17 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
If it was invisibility rather than improved, then you'd still see me on the monitor, even though you couldn't if you then looked directly at me. It doesn't affect
My rule of thumb for this would be that if you're "looking" (ie, viewing the result with your eyes, whatever the source of the image in your eyes) at something using any form of eyewear you paid essence for, then invisibility still protects the target. It's only if you're using a purely technological sensor (ie, no essence), or the final rendered sense is something other than sight that you can see through it. |
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Oct 12 2007, 11:55 AM
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#6
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
hmm . . would one see somebody who is under normal invisibility, if using a portable camera which is mounted on your head and feeding you image material through your data-jack onto you image display which is in your eyes?
you paid for datajack AND image link with essence . . |
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Oct 12 2007, 12:10 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 7-March 07 From: Hapeville, GA Member No.: 11,175 |
Also remember that both Ultrasound and Radar work essentially the same way, and neither are eye modifications - both are headware. Also, under Radar in augmentation it specifically says that camouflage and invisibility don't affect it. Since both radar and ultrasound work essentially the same way - just one being a more powerful version, it stands to reason that invisibility doesn't affect either. Your eyes don't see them, but radar/ultrasound is a separate system from your eyes - a separate sense that your human brain interprets similarly to sight.
Now, ultrasound that is just on AR Glasses or piped into cybereyes from an outside sensor is a different story, I'd say in that case invisibility would work since it has to go through your eyes. |
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Oct 12 2007, 12:10 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
Nope, they'd still be covered by the Invisibility spell, because it's fooling your brain -- hence my security desk example. |
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Oct 12 2007, 01:11 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 10-September 07 From: Makati, Philippines Member No.: 13,191 |
Under invisibility and improved invisibility
Lets say, in this example, your mage happened to be wearing metal boots after he took a swim in a cesspool. The guard will most definitely smell and hear you. But will it fool the ultrasound sensor?
The device isn't really "seeing" you, it is more of bombarding you with sound that bounces back and gets picked up and translated into an overlay. If that still doesn't fly with you, you can still see the sound that the mage makes from his footfalls (provided they set their ultrasound to passive and a high enough sensitivity), metal booties or not. |
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Oct 12 2007, 01:18 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
My issue isn't that the ultrasound system can detect them, but that the user can see the output!
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Oct 12 2007, 01:43 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
My exact issue as well. If the target is affected by the invisibility spell then regardless if the ultrasound detects them the target will not aknowledge that they are there due to being fooled in believing that nothing is there. If you on the other hand break (deadly) wind, stumble, tap dance or throw sparkling powder into the air around you then you WILL be detected through other means as even the most dense guard would find you. |
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Oct 12 2007, 03:13 PM
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#12
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Would you have a problem if the user of a cyberware scanner saw their cyberware on his HUD as they walked by?
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Oct 12 2007, 03:18 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
Hmm, more difficult. I'd say that I think that the cyberware scanner would go off, alerting the user to the presence of cyberware. The user would look up, see that there's no one there, and (depending on their level of training) either lock the place down or just assume it's a glitch with the system. |
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Oct 12 2007, 03:24 PM
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#14
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Most cyberware scanners will give you a visible show of where each piece of ware is, like an x-ray. So I guess "look up" would be more like "Alert bells going off but user fails to see any displays on his HUD."
If you want to play that invisibility is "total invisisbility" and defeats all senses and sensor types - or even a wider spectrum - that's fine. But it'd be wise to sit down and figure out what it does and does not affect in your games. Because here's another pair: How does an invisible guy interact with a radar sensor? With a MAD scanner for all his guns? As standard, the man might be invisible, but MAD scanners, cyberscanners, and ultrasound will all detect his presence. The silence spell will get rid of the ultrasound problem. Alternately, you could create an Expanded Invisibility spell that affects the non-visible spectrum, so as to defeat radar/cyberware/mad scanners. Make it work like improved invisibility with a +1 drain modifier. |
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Oct 12 2007, 06:20 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
It just says the invisibility spell, not spells. It is singular, meaning it is only talking about the mana spell and not the physical spell. Improved invisibility would still work against all technological sensors as long as it beats the object threshold, which is 4. So as long as the magician casts at force 4 and gets 4 hits, they are successfully invisible to all.
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Oct 12 2007, 06:22 PM
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#16
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
You're incorrect.
Imp. Invisibility only makes something invisible to sensors that operate in the visible spectrum. The spell notes that it operates like normal invisiblity but also fools mechanical devices. Regular invisibility specifically states it affects the visible spectrum. Cyberscanners, MAD scanners, and Ultrasound are all outside of the visible spectrum. One isn't EM radiation based at all. |
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Oct 12 2007, 11:33 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 27-June 03 From: Past the Keeper, fourth plane on the left. Member No.: 4,820 |
It seems that the issue is coming from the interpretations of "viewers". To me, a viewer of the spell's subject would be looking directly at it.
By my understanding, the guard looking at the screen wouldn't be classified as a "viewer" because he isn't looking at the subject, he's looking at a digital image, from a camera, being displayed on his screen, that shows Mr. Invisible. So he would still be on the screen, but when the guard looked at where it shows him, there's nothing there couldn't see you. In your example, what about a guard looking at the same image from the other end of the building, or an hour later? The magic is unable to affect them since there is no link to them. I think it would be disorienting enough it see something on a screen that you can't physically locate, especially if it's not there the next time you check the screen. |
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Oct 12 2007, 11:42 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Ultrasound works against standard invisibility because it is a game balancing issue. The rest is just complete and utter fluff. This is also why magicians can't time travel or teleport.
-ss |
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Oct 13 2007, 01:59 AM
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#19
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Remember: invisibility is not Obfuscate.
Well. oWoD obfuscate, anyway. |
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Oct 13 2007, 02:14 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think people have been house ruling invisibility as a "you don't see me" field for so long that they have forgotten what the actual spell does. It is very speciifically a single-sense illusion.
You can still beat ultrasound, though, if you stack a hush or stealth spell with that invisibility spell. |
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Oct 13 2007, 03:56 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
If the spell is Mental then it effects the mind. It is basically invisibility and ignore. Your mind does not let you see that person by whatever means. The display on the screen is not going to be more believable to your mind then you looking right at them and not seeing them. An alert may make you look for a couse but the invisible guy couldn't be it.
If it is physical then they can try and see it if they can sense it. One of the things that I haven't figured out is why people don't just rework the spell improved invisibility to be multisensory. It doesn't change the drain much at all (1 point if I remember correctly) and will work against all senses. You don't need silence. Just improve imporved invis! I think that a better version of Invisibility is Belongs. A mental illusion that tells the people that see them that they belong. They are to be let in past security and signed in. I've worked security for 10 years and we have this all the time. We would get a memo or a call saying that someone with this company or that is going to be arriving and to give them vistors badges and let them to wear eye protection on the shop floor. They could be going through any part of the building with those badges. We are told not to stop them because THEY BELONG. It's a part of any large security situation. |
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Oct 13 2007, 04:48 AM
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#22
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...ahh, but then there's radar sense
...not bad for .03 essence and 3,000 :nuyen: per rating point. |
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Oct 13 2007, 05:21 AM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Nondetection is one of the first spells my spellcasting-type characters create if and when they get the chance. |
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Oct 13 2007, 05:36 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Garrowolf seems to think that because a spell "affects the mind", it must be like a jedi mind trick. But all it does is impair one sense. As Solkari already pointed out, a guard looking at a monitor would, indeed, see an invisible character - that's the advantage of improved invisibility; it fools the camera, so that the character won't show up on the monitor, either.
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Oct 13 2007, 03:41 PM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Glyph has it right Garrowolf. Invisibility only affects viewers who are actually viewing the invisible guy directly. If an invisible mage walks past a security guard, the guard gets a resist check to see the mage. If the guard fails, he can't see the mage, but can smell, hear, taste, or touch him, as well as using any other non-visual detection. Ultrasound/radar, mad scanners, anything technological would see the mage. If he looks at his monitors, he would see the mage walking by, as invisibility doens't affect technological sensors. (Side note: the mages face would be all over the security tapes.) Another way, is if he habitually brought up his weapon which had an imaging scope on it. He would be able to see the mage through the scope, but not directly with his eyes.
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