 Ultrasound and invisibility |
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 Oct 13 2007, 09:29 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78  |
That would depend on whether it's an optical imaging scope or not |
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Oct 13 2007, 09:39 PM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that is not correct. the guard would be able to see you clearly in the monitor, because the invisibility spell only affects the ability of living beings to see you--it has no effect on the ability of living beings to see images of you. |
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Oct 14 2007, 01:04 AM
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#28
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
The only problem I see w/ a lot of peoples arguments is they're ignoring the meaning of mind affecting spell. And ignoring the fact that shadowrun spells need actual LOS between caster and 'victim' to operate. It's pretty clear from the spell description normal vision, low-light vision, and infravision are all affected by the spell. Electronic cameras can clearly still see the target of a basic invisibility, and a remote guard looking at a monitor of said camera clearly sees what the camera sees.
Here's the only gray areas I see: I have a viewer wearing goggles, the goggles have ultrasound installed in them. The mage can clearly see the viewer directly to affect him w/ his mind-affecting power. In this case, the viewer doesn't 'feel his environment with ultrasound' he sees a visual translation/superimposition of the ultrasound in the visual spectrum through his normal eyeballs. Since the invisibility is 'mind-affecting' does it mean that the viewer ignores what his eyes through the goggles tell him?! I'd argue yes. The same situation above, but the viewer is using a weapon electronic imaging scope. The mage can see the viewer. It's the same question... only the image is on the weapons viewscreen sight (or his smartlinked goggles)... again the image is visual and the viewer is under mental control to ignore visual information. (also this has the caveat that not all imaging scopes are electronic, there's quite a few optical only ones so that mages can target spells through them!). If the ultrasound is obtained through ear cyberware/adept power it's clearly not 'visual information' in the simple sense. For game simplicity sake the character has a 6th sense. Same goes for improved invisibility.. it warped the original light rays but can't do anything about the image drawn on the goggles. (making improved invis inferior in this case). EG: improved invis works for fooling viewers and visual sensor systems, while basic invis is for absolutely fooling people people in direct line of sight of the mage. Here's another situation... mage sight security system. Guards aren't looking through cameras but through fiberoptics. Does the basic invisibility apply? Do the fiberoptics work in reverse? I'd argue no. An enemy mage can't target a mage wearing mage sight goggles through his own fiberoptic cable. |
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Oct 14 2007, 02:17 AM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Imaging scopes themselves are not optical or digital, just their enhancements are. The only enhancement availible in optical is magnification. I would assume standard sec guards gun to have smartlink and an imaging scope w/smartlink on it. Thus, why I used it as an example.
No. He would see a meta-human shaped object via the ultrasound in his goggles, but his normal sight through the goggles would show nothing. This obviously would help him with something such as shooting at the mage, but recognizing who it is, or anything like that is beyond ultrasounds capabilities.
No, the viewer can see the mage on the viewer, because invisibility doesn't affect technological sensors. He can see the mage fine on the viewer, but it'd be hard aiming through the screen when you have no reference point except for the screen. (Also, most mages just use optical binoculars, no reason to be looking through your gun just to cast a spell. Also, mechanically, take aim to look through a scope is a simple action, casting a spell is a complex action. I don't think mages would want to waste 2 turns just to cast a spell at someone.)
You can't get ultrasound via an adept power. It also is not ear cyberware. Its headware. Either way, ultrasound/radar are sensors, and thusly are never affected by the invisibility spell. Likewise, they are not visual, and are not affected by the improved invisibility spell either.
If the mage looked back through the sight goggles, he could indeed target the other mage with spells. The problem is finding the tiny place the goggles are in in the first place. Also, yes, the guards looking through the fiberoptics would be fooled by both invisibility or improved invisibility. |
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Oct 14 2007, 03:17 AM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
So you're arguing that basically, the spell ties a mind-affecting spell to each photon emitted/bounced off the mage to the viewers eyeballs and then affects the target whether the mage can see him or not. Anything which adds extra 'visual' information even if superimposed visually over the mage doesn't count as the photons don't originate at the mage. Any recipient of the photon can't see it pending on save (even through mage-sight defensive fiberoptics).
Like I said it's grey. I was raising them as a hypothetical for sake of argument. Yours does produce a cogent baseline on how to judge if the spell has an effect or not. Though it does raise an interesting idea.... cast invisibility the patrolling corp guard... use him as a diversion... let his allies fill him full of lead. There you go, a nice blue on blue incident and the shadowrunners didn't even need to fire a shot :). |
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Oct 14 2007, 04:11 AM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I pretty much agree with Tarantula's take on it.
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Oct 14 2007, 04:35 AM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Holy shit! I got something right? |
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