 Shadowrun and Antifa |
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 Oct 21 2007, 01:19 AM
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#76
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
The logical extension of this is to find a way to maximize the number of towns any route passes through on-grade. I, at least, consider this ridiculous—even without the reduction toward absurdity, the benefits of faster ground transportation seem to me to clearly outweigh the economic impact on bypassed towns.
Traffic jams are caused by insufficient capacity, not by capacity. I do not dispute the pollution aspect, but dependence on vehicles is caused by absence of alternatives—it's a positive feedback loop, but the vast expenditure a car represents would be much less desirable if at any point in the past there were a serious alternative.
1) All these car parks are free? Many of them will be generating tax revenue themselves. 2) You assume that the office or commercial structure could be made useful without the morning population influx delivered via freeways.
So long as people making decisions on where to live value housing space and housing cost, any efficient means of travel will encourage decentralization of cities. See Tokyo, a single city which occupies an area two-thirds of that of the entire state of Rhode Island.
And deliver tremendous amounts of state and local tax revenue from transportation of goods, mobility of services, and the ability of businesses to hire from a wide radius rather than from the immediate area.
Absolutely. It also increases the benefits.
You pose a difficult question. Fortunately it's one that would never have to be answered, due to the nonunique nature of most innovation, but it might actually make sense to trade the ~72,000,000 million people killed in the Great Patriotic War for the development of the freeway. Edit: Hyzmarca: can I recommend you not use the term "holocaust"? There was no religious sacrifice, just a multiple genocide attempt (with some other targets on the side) using run-of-the-mill death camps and some fancy technology. Which brings me to my other disagreement: many remnants of the Third Reich remain. Freeways are one, but much of modern rocketry is another, and the vast quantities of scientific data gathered by experimentation on death camp prisoners is a third. There's more out there if you look. ~J |
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Oct 21 2007, 01:32 AM
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#77
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
How about a Native American homeland? How many Native Americans were killed by the United States, and would the campaigns of the Indian Wars be considered genocide? |
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Oct 21 2007, 01:34 AM
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#78
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
How many other countries and/or 'peoples' can say the same thing, from one side of the question or the other?
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Oct 21 2007, 01:36 AM
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#79
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I fully support the creation of a Jute homeland.
Edit: but Hyzmarca forgot us! You'd also need an Anarchist homeland. You could probably get away with using the plain old former USSR countries for a Russian homeland, though—I don't know if you need to specifically make it a "Russian POW homeland". ~J |
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Oct 21 2007, 02:02 AM
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#80
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Exactly. That's why I don't choose to feel any true sympathy for the Jewish people nor do I villify Nazis. Shit/history happens - this one event is not particularly significant to me in comparisons to the plights and atrocities of other peoples. |
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Oct 21 2007, 02:11 AM
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#81
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,363 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Holy diatribe, hyzmarca!
I hope with a dose of calming down and reflection you might rethink the various logical errors in your post... the ones mixed in with your valid points. One thing I would like to point out is that the Nazi ideology and mindset are not gone, and therefore should not be consigned to some scrap-heap of history. They are alive, still, in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, in the U.S., in Canada, and who knows where else. Keeping their existence in our minds is important, if for no other reason than to keep them from taking hold of another powerful nation in this century. They won't go away till humanity grows up enough to not think that way. That's a long way off. As an interesting side note, I read in today's paper an article about the U.S. considering whether to call the mass murder of Armenians by Turkey early in the last century a genocide. Apparently, there is political resistance in the U.S. to using that word because Turkey has threatened to withdraw support for the 'war on terrorism' if such a determination is made. Also interesting is the fact that the official U.N. definition of genocide lists groups of people to whom the word genocide can be applied but does not include 'class' as one of those groups, because Joseph Stalin vetoed that category for fear his starvation of millions of Ukrainian peasants could have been classified as genocide. Yes, hyzmarca, political and economic concerns do often override what is right. |
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Oct 21 2007, 02:36 AM
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#82
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...(In reference to hyzmarca's post) ...hokay...looks like it's time to get out of the pool here until the waters cool down a bit. Been an interesting read but becoming a bit too personalised for this swimmer.
Now in reply to Kage...[rubbing the lump from that last brick] 1. The US had a decent transportation system, literally one of the best in the world that was sold out "lock stock & barrel" in the late 50s (major thesis of mine in college). It was called the Interurban and surface street rail system (streetcars) that disappeared almost overnight. The onslaught continues with further cuts to intercity rail, local transit systems, and regional transportation. 2. Freeway expansion does encourage more traffic, maybe not right away but I have seen within a year, a widened freeway just as choked with cars as it was before it was improved. Also, while you can add more lanes, you still have to get the cars on and off somewhere which only aggravates the congestion further. 3. Cities (such as my hometown) give tax incentives for building car parks in hopes of alleviating the dreaded "parking issue" that would scare people away from the CBD. However in the long run they are actually aggravating the issue they are trying to resolve. The more that driving into the CBD is "encouraged" (by the offering of more parking spots), the worse the situation becomes until gridlock ensues. Also before there were freeways people rode the Interurbans and streetcars to the CBD for work, shopping and events. Back then many cities' downtowns were vibrant places compared to today. Decent transit, as we once had, would still bring people in. 4. To a point, I'll concede the decentralisation issue somewhat with regards to Tokyo but that is an extreme as it is the most populous metropolitan in the word. Here in the US the push to the suburbs coincided with the proliferation of expressways and the automobile that benefited from them, not development of mass transit which was at the time actually on the decline. 5. Look at the aging bridge issue that recently has come to light. It will take billions (mostly at the state level) to bring many of these spans back up to standard not to mention the disruption while repairs are effected. Drive the freeways in King County, WA., many areas of which are almost a "washboard" and have been in bad need of repair for nearly two decades. To upgrade the Interstate and local freeway systems to a "quality" state of repair would require a massive capital outlay on all levels, federal, state, and local. Where will that money come from, especially in the case of cash strapped cities which are closing schools, scaling back social programmes, and even cutting transit, to reduce budget shortfalls? 6. As of late, the negative aspects of building more and enlarging freeways are becoming less and less balanced out by the positive benefits for many of the reaons I have already mentioned. 7. The modern freeway was not worth it, especially when most of the benefits could have easily been achieved though a commitment to upgrading the existing transportation system we already had in place. ...okay, now where's that towel? |
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Oct 21 2007, 04:30 AM
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#83
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
To join in the freeway debate:
KK, the street cars only made sense on an intraurban level, within cities. Intercity, you had the rail lines, which had capacity limits. The Interstate highway system was incredibly necessary - those who say it wasn't don't realize how bad the long-haul transport system in the US was before it was built. It's instructive, perhaps, that the Interstate was built under Eisenhower. Besides his WW2 experience, he'd been one of the army officers that took part in the 1919 transcontinental motor convoy - a simple idea, right? Just send trucks along the roads? (It didn't go offroad once.) Nope. It took 2 months, thanks to delays that included getting stuck in mud. You can move a lot over rail - but railways have a capacity limit that is even firmer than that of freeways. (McDonald's is a similar story - yes, they've now wiped out a lot of decent places in...everywhere, but they initially were a hell of an improvement over the roadside eateries that were common before McDonald's brought at least a level of quality. You think McD's sucks? Be happy you never risked what came before.) |
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Oct 21 2007, 05:37 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
national alliance resistance records national socialist movement overthrow american nazi party british national party national democratic party of germany new fascists canadian neo nazis canadian white nationalists 'nuff said Also, see "Hate Rock", a documentary about Skinhead music. Interviews and profiles of many of the above organizations. |
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Oct 21 2007, 05:51 AM
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#85
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
How many members of those organizations actually held political or military office in Germany at any time between September 1 1939 and September 2 1945? If the number is greater than 0 and this can be proven by a preponderance of the evidence, then I will concede defeat. The fact that there exists idiots, even racist idiots who have adopted Nazi symbology, does not prove that any German official who planned or ran death camps during WWII is still alive. |
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Oct 21 2007, 06:21 AM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
In any event, I'm not trying to win an argument, or even to argue. Just providing refference material. |
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Oct 21 2007, 07:39 AM
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#87
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Was anything of it (the advancement in rocket science or the data gahtered by torturing people in death camps by sadists like Dr. Mengele) actually worth the lives of millions of people? Or would humanity maybe been able to get this knowledge over time without eleminating people? |
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Oct 21 2007, 07:47 AM
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#88
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Hopefully all of those bastards are dead and suffer in Hell. |
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Oct 21 2007, 08:51 AM
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#89
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 11-September 07 From: Saeder-Krupp Rhine-Ruhr Regional HQ Member No.: 13,215 |
By now, most are. But some did hold office. Kurt Georg Kiesinger, for instance, or Hans Filbinger. De-Nazification was never as complete as people would have liked to believe.
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Oct 21 2007, 10:06 AM
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#90
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
of course not. but the fact remains that those are positive aspects of the Nazi regime. it's dangerous thinking to pretend such aspects don't exist. |
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Oct 21 2007, 10:10 AM
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#91
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Exactly. |
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Oct 21 2007, 10:21 AM
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#92
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
n/p
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Oct 21 2007, 10:55 AM
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#93
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think you need to step back and try to see things in a more objective manner. I don't believe anyone here is condoning the bulk of Nazi behavior (I certainly am not), not do I believe that anyone here is endorsing a return of those specific values or the regime in general. Merely that there were some (however few) positive aspects that grew from that regime.
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Oct 21 2007, 11:03 AM
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#94
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I can understand that point of view, but I don't share it. You're right, objectivly speaking, but it seems that I can't take this objective point of view, not in this case.
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Oct 21 2007, 02:40 PM
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#95
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
"The trains ran on time."
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Oct 21 2007, 03:36 PM
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#96
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
"Because Mussolini had the motormen shot if the train was late."
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Oct 21 2007, 03:43 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 209 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,771 |
Oh come on, don't you know how frustrating it is to have to wait for a late train? |
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Oct 21 2007, 04:09 PM
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#98
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
No.:P
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Oct 21 2007, 04:30 PM
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#99
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not to pick on you, but that's exactly why that type of thinking is so scary. if you view a group of people as monsters without any redeeming qualities, you divorce yourself from the need to think when dealing with them. and if you're not thinking when you deal with that group of people, then it's going to be very difficult for you to differentiate between people who actually belong in that group and people who only superficially appear to belong in that group. in this case, for instance, it becomes very easy to lump anyone who expresses anything that remotely resembles antisemitism in with the Nazis, thus killing all possibility of rational discussion when considering any topic related to Jews or Judaism. another danger is that you can be led into (further) irrational action very easily; for instance, an opponent of the highway system in Germany could theoretically gain a lot of support by simply pointing out the autobahn's Nazi roots. and perhaps more to the point, by joining in with the general groupthink that vilifies the Nazis beyond their due while ignoring their redeeming qualities, you're actually doing exactly what the Nazis are most hated and reviled for. |
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Oct 21 2007, 05:23 PM
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#100
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Last I checked, the National Socialists are most hated and reviled for either their death camps or their unchecked military aggression, not for their vilification of Jews, which earned great respect from (for example) Henry Ford and, arguably, Charles Lindbergh. If the Third Reich had implemented, say, the Madagascar Plan, I hardly think such widespread support for their total condemnation would be found (though of course invading countries tends to create its own ill will).
~J |
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