 NPC effectivness cannot be measured by BP cost, A Rant |
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 Oct 14 2007, 07:29 PM
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#26
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
Except Cain, you can't call a shot to bypass the vehicle armor if you're shooting at the driver, as shots against passengers cannot affect the vehicle. Thusly, you can bypass the drivers armor of 0, and the vehicular armor still applies.
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Oct 14 2007, 08:06 PM
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#27
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and thats silly in more ways then one. first of the "target" should be a fine red mist around the vehicle. and for the passengers to be damaged at all, the vehicle must come to a near/total stop. and then only if the passengers are not fully strapped in. now, if one where to simply declare that on a ram, the body of the other side is whats used in the calculations, things change quite fast. then the target is still misty, but the vehicle and its passengers should not notice much (even when running into a full borg or bulked up troll). |
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Oct 14 2007, 09:21 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't see how sitting in a t-bird is going to accomplish anything. if the banshee guy has to stop the runners from doing something, he can be easily defeated by the runners simply walking into a building. if the runners have to stop the banshee guy from doing something, all they have to do is wait until he gets out of the banshee to do it. unless the task is something that the banshee guy can accomplish without ever leaving his banshee--and i can't think of many, given his skillset--he's never going to be able to take on a team of runners and win. called shots and vehicle armor and whatnot don't even enter into the equation. |
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Oct 14 2007, 10:06 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The rules assume that the GM is not a dumbass. Are you honestly surprised that when you set aside common sense in an attempt to break rules that require common sense, you manage to break them? |
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Oct 14 2007, 10:14 PM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
common sense does not dictate that someone with 900bp is necessarily a badass. he could be an idiot savant with 800bp worth of knowledge skills.
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Oct 14 2007, 10:31 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
That would actually be an awesome character concept, someone with the learning stimulus nanoware that just acts as a human encyclopedia--it would take them a grand total of 3 karma to raise a single knowledge skill up to 4 with rating 3 LS nanoware. Hell, add in a few other tricks and you've got a budding Sherlock Holmes. |
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Oct 14 2007, 10:35 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I think if making npcs with BPs made "better" npcs (not in the power sense, but how they fill their role in the game), then it'd justify spending the time. But if the difference between four 400 BP npcs and four eyeballed npcs is that the first four takes 2 hours to make and the second four took 15 minutes, then the eyeballed group wins-- mainly because GMs don't have unlimited prep time.
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Oct 15 2007, 12:44 AM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
sure, but it's hardly a challenge to most runner teams. unless they're going on Jeopardy. |
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Oct 15 2007, 01:51 AM
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#34
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
A dedicated uber-mechanic with more BPs should be better than a dedicated uber-mechanic with less BPs, right? If you wanted 5-min NPCs, go to the front of the chapter and use them Grunts. Prime Runners are the NPCs that you'd want to stick around, the guys with a story and some RP motivation. |
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Oct 15 2007, 01:57 AM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Not to be obtuse (any more than I can help it), but why would story and RP motivation be helped or hindered by BP's?
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Oct 15 2007, 02:26 AM
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#36
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You want to build a NPC that is measured relative to a PC. Then that NPC has to have those same skills that would make a PC "real". The NPC has to "exist" in ways that are more than just the cutboard cutouts that the Grunts are. If you are creating paper targets, forget about using the Prime Runner rules and just go Grunt. |
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Oct 15 2007, 02:28 AM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
certainly, but an uber-mechanic is not really much of a threat to most PCs. the problem with judging lesser/equal/superior threats (or whatever the terminology is, can't recall offhand) based solely on BPs is that you can spend lots and lots of BPs on stuff that is non-threatening. |
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Oct 15 2007, 03:01 AM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Skipping for a moment that none of that has to do with story or RP motivation, and sticking solely to game balance (which seems to be at the core of the issue), it seems like at best, BP's are a guideline of character power, rather than an absolute. I mean, out of a general sense of fairness, all the pc's should start off on equal footing, so everybody gets 400 (or 200, or 1000, or 10) BP's. And it's understandable that the characters the pc's will be encountering and opposing are built similarly, although its probably a little unrealistic to assume a GM is going to have as much time to devote to an NPC as a player will have to devote to his PC. (Granted, no one here is claiming that, but I'm putting it out there as a general rule.) If BP's were a more accurate measure of character power (say, analogous to D&D's levels, and forgetting for a moment that even with D&D's rigid system level is not always the best measure to compare characters, if 22 years of fighter and wizard power debates are any indication), then I'd be more convinced of the need to stick to it, even if that means more work for the GM. Work isn't a bad thing. But if the work you're doing for the game isn't adding anything to it, then its just work for the sake of work. Its fine to enjoy the process, but thats not the same thing as being productive. Personally, I'd rather 15 minutes be spent banging out the mechanics of the npc and the rest of the time on the story and RP motivation since ultimately, that's what's going to make the game more enjoyable for the players and the GM. |
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Oct 15 2007, 04:32 AM
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#39
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Perhaps we have a different approach to RP and story. The build determines the story and the RP motivation to me. If he has a very high skill, he must have invested time and effort developing that skill. Hence he should have some motivation with respect to that skill. So BPs and its usage determines the RP and story for me. The story and RP writes itself once I finished the build. |
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Oct 15 2007, 04:55 AM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
BEST RUN IDEA EVER. |
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Oct 15 2007, 05:34 AM
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#41
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Actually, after looking at it, there's no such rule. Second, you're still not affecting the vehicle when you bypass its armor.
As a corollary to that, the eyeballed NPC's may actually come out a few BP's shy of the hard-built prime runners. However, they also might come out ahead in dice pool size, and therefore effectiveness. |
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Oct 15 2007, 06:44 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
To me, the needs and logic of the story determine the mechanics. I'll come up with a character's role in the story before I start looking at stats. For BP's to be really useful in this regard, they'd need either to determine the challenge the NPC represents or at least be a leading indicator of it, and that's not always the case. There are other factors (the rule-fu of the person making the character, situational modifiers in the game, the tactical acumen of the player or GM) that are much better indicators of a character's effectiveness than the number of BP's. And all of that is ignoring that the size of the Dice Pools are an exact measure of a character's mechanical effectiveness. Also, PC's and NPC's spend their BP's differently, because they do different things in the game. I think its a little disingenuous to say that PC and NPC are equal at 400 BP, because their in play function is very different. (For one thing, the players are all controlling one PC each, where the GM has to split his attention between all his NPC's, the actions of the PC's, and adjucating the rules.) And really, how important is the amount of BP's used for a character? Its not like D&D, where XP is directly related to the CR of the monster you face. You get extra Karma for challenge (at GM discretion), but the SR combat system being a fast, fluid and brutal as it is, a mook can get the drop on you and its a tougher fight than the Prime Runner you got the drop on. Granted, I'm lazy, but when it comes to prepping a game I'm not going to do any more work than I have to (or that I have time for), and the prep that I do I hope will be the stuff that has the most impact in play. Mechanics have a big influence on play. The methods uses to generate those mechanics, in my opinion, not so much. As long as the NPC's fit into the story in a way that fits with the internal logic of the game world (no Prime Runner Mall Security Guards), the methods used to generate the NPC's aren't going to come up. |
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Oct 15 2007, 04:01 PM
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#43
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Yeah, there is. You declare an attack on the passenger. You call a shot to bypass his armor (0). You take your shot. He rolls damage resistance. He gets body + armor. Oh, but he is in a vehicle, that means he gets the vehicles armor too. It gets added in. End result, he gets body + vehicle armor only. |
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Oct 15 2007, 04:46 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Even if you kill the pilot you're not going to crash the Banshee. It has a bare minimum of Pilot 2 to fly itself, and that's assuming that the peson who dumped 2.35 million into it didn't also splurge 15,000 more for pilot 6.
Gotta love how Cain can derail even a thread about NPCs and BPs with his Longshot Called Shot agenda. :) -- On topic: A character with more BPs spent on his specialty is more of a threat in his area of expertise. True, the rules don't specify, and an anal retentive reading can make you think that the authors feel the aforementioned 900BP gimp is a threat in combat, but it requires a GM to go out of his way to be stupid to make that happen. Me, I don't play with people that dumb. YMMV. |
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Oct 15 2007, 05:15 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
again, it's not stupid to make a 900bp gimp unless you're intending to use him to challenge a group of runners. which is the whole point of the thread--should a character count as a superhuman prime runner simply because he's got the requisite amount of BPs, even if they're all spent on learning dead languages? or should there be some other qualifying criteria?
as far as bypassing armor with a called shot goes, all the rules say is that you can make a called shot to avoid the target's armor. it doesn't specify that the armor must be worn by the target. you could argue that the vehicle's armor isn't the target's armor, since the vehicle isn't the target--but that armor is applying to the target, so it's perfectly logical to me to say that it counts as part of the target's armor. |
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Oct 15 2007, 05:21 PM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
By that logic, then characters take reaction penalties for being in a vehicle, since the vehicle armor counts as part of the targets armor. And almost all vehicle armor would encumber a character.
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Oct 15 2007, 05:26 PM
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#47
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Technically, they do.
It says so right before it states that the vehicle's Armor is added to any personal Armor the character is wearing. |
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Oct 15 2007, 05:30 PM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I meant via the encumbrance rules. That penalty is because they are in a small cramped space. Not because they are bogged down by a lot of armor. By MFBs take, the mechanic couldn't even move around inside his t-bird since his armor would be 18, well above his low body score. Effectively making his agi and rea 0. Making it impossible for him to move.
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Oct 15 2007, 05:32 PM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Heh, I always thought that you made NPCs for whatever purpose was calling for 1+ NPCs. If you need grunts / mooks, then you made a bunch of throwaway mobs. If you needed a Prime Runner, then you made a Prime Runner of the desired power level regardless of BP considerations.
If the encounter requires a guy who can take on any two of the group's runners at the same time with a 50/50 chance of beating them, then you make him accordingly. BPs aren't even a consideration. Then again, I learned that lesson from AD&D 2nd edition (gasp, I named the game that shall not be named). You made encounters for what you need, not tailored to the same rules PCs follow. Your goal should be to tell an engaging story and that includes "breaking the rules" where appropriate for great storytelling. So I fail to see why BPs are even a topic for discussion for an NPC of any flavor. You determine what level of power you need and make it. It's not that hard or complicated. |
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Oct 15 2007, 05:34 PM
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#50
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
No, you call a shot to bypass *all* armor. Nowhere in the rules does it state that it's personal armor only. Also, there is absolutely no rule that says that you cannot affect the vehcicle while targeting a passenger, nor that the vehicle armor cannot be reduced to zero via called shot.
Except even with a Pilot 6, it has to make a Crast test with a threshold of 3. Given 6 dice, that's 2 successes. The banshee crashes into your ego, scattering it into little pieces.
PS: I didn't bring it up this time. Everyone else on Dumpshock has discovered how broken called shots are; someday, you'll realize how obvious it is. [Edited for excessive insults about James's lack of IQ, his sexual preferences, and pregnant goldfish] |
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