 Stealthy mind control, Hiding spellcasting revisited |
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 Oct 16 2007, 02:07 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869  |
If you were in a meeting with a Mr. Johnson or some other character while in a "nice" setting, how would you go about casting Influence or other Mental Manipulation spell on the person and get away with it?
The rules for noticing spellcasting are kinda weird or maybe just incomplete. The rules say anyone (even a mundane) can notice spellcasting with a Perception (6-Force) chance of success (+2 dice if a spellcaster, +2 if astrally perceiving at the time). The fluff says that you just have a funny look on your face and are making subtle gestures, so this implies to me that mundane methods can be used to hide your spellcasting attempt. 1) Would a Con or Etiquette roll add hits to your opposed hide-spellcasting attempt? 2) A spirit's Concealment power affects Perception rolls, would that power also affect the Perception roll to notice spellcasting? 3) An Invisibility spell would obviously hide your spellcasting attempt since it makes you completely invisible, but would a Mask spell hide your spellcasting too? If your Mask hides your facial features and body type, can it be used to hide your facial expressions and gestures? Are there other methods that work? |
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Oct 16 2007, 02:13 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Many of the manipulation spells are automatically detected by the recipient. They may not know "who" cast it, but they certainly know they are under the effects of such a spell...
Just something to think about. |
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Oct 16 2007, 02:15 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Influence doesn't, in fact it says they think the command was their idea. Alter Memory takes care of the "after-effects" of other mind control spells. |
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Oct 16 2007, 02:31 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
1) I'd accept it with a -2 to -4 modifier (depending on what the mage is supposed to be doing at that time) but not with Con nor Etiquette... Maybe a Cha+Wil (I don't remember the name) roll.
2) In a 'nice' setting, the Concealment power will make the character less likely to attract attention. It means that Mr. Johnson (and his friends) will be less likely too look his way. But if Mr. Johnson (or one of his friends) really examine's the character the concealment power won't conceal anything. 3) Isn't the Mask spell the one that gives you the appearance of someone else? If that's the case, you'll just look like someone else casting a spell. |
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Oct 16 2007, 02:33 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 29-August 03 Member No.: 5,553 |
Con seems like a viable skill to roll.
Also, you could multicast. If you cast an Influence spell at the same time as, say, a cigarette-lighting spell, then most mundane onlookers will probably assume that whatever spooky glow or shamanic mask they see is from the cigarette lighting. You could always just cast at a low force too, I guess, but that's not really going to be very effective against high-willpower targets. |
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Oct 16 2007, 03:25 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Good point, the Composure roll should definitely help just to hide all the weird looks on your face. I'm thinking Con would help with disguising your unusual facial expressions with a clever deception like "What beautiful eyes you have!" or "Ugh, I have really bad constipation" :D. And of course you can always use the classic "Look over there!" gambit. I was thinking the same thing you were about the Mask spell, I think it just hides your facial features and body type, not your facial expressions or gestures. |
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Oct 16 2007, 03:26 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That's an awesome idea. |
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Oct 16 2007, 03:54 PM
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#8
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Can you multicast two different spells? I thought you could only multicast one spell at different targets.
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Oct 16 2007, 04:00 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
But what if I am a plain Hermetic mage, and I am looking at you with my peripheral vision while it appears I am watching the long legged mini skirted, cleavage displaying server? What then. Line of Sight does not mean what is directly in front of you, it refers to your peripheral vision as well. Plus if I do not have the gesture geasa I do not have to make special handsigns (ala Naruto) or the Spoken word geasa (ala DBZ).
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Oct 16 2007, 04:08 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 29-August 03 Member No.: 5,553 |
That's absolutely true. However, if you cast a force 4-6 spell, there's gonna be some amount of glow, sparkly looking special effects, or something. Certainly enough of an effect that there's still a risk. |
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Oct 16 2007, 04:15 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
By the book, anything force 6 or more is a threshold 0 test and is automatically noticed by anyone around.
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Oct 16 2007, 04:38 PM
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#12
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Noticing Spell casting is not necessarily a visual perception test. Therefore visual distractions may not have any effect whatsoever on noticing spell casting.
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Oct 16 2007, 04:42 PM
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#13
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Wow. Get caught casting Influence on your Johnson even once and your rep is going to take a serious downturn. You are flirting with disaster. That said, everyone's already suggested some good stuff. |
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Oct 16 2007, 05:05 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
Kinda like that spooky hair on the back of the neck, something just aint right feeling. |
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Oct 16 2007, 05:09 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
There is no opposed hide spellcasting roll. You can't hide it. Its merely a roll to see if they notice it. |
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Oct 16 2007, 05:14 PM
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#16
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Some of you are edging up to the "too detailed" line. Remember, any stuff that you make up to explain what got noticed is strictly to support that they did (or have) notice(d).
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Oct 16 2007, 06:11 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Well, that would be true in some game systems, but in SR4 it lists several things that can be noticed, but none of them are supernatural effects. I'm not saying what you said doesn't make sense, but either the fluff is incomplete or the rules are incomplete. I guess it all comes down to game balance. My thoughts are that if you could only get a handful of extra hits by using Composure, Con, Etiquette, and other mundane methods of hiding spellcasting, then it would be ok to go with the Fluff As Written because it has little effect on game balance. Especially if you have to invest tons of BP/karma on those skills and attributes. But if you could make it so you're virtually guaranteed to go unnoticed with just a few skill points, then it might be too game unbalancing. Especially without also introducing some new gadgets that let mundanes detect spellcasting (such as glow-FAB sprays or PKE scanners). |
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Oct 16 2007, 06:56 PM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, you're wrong. SR4, 168, "Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it)." Its perfectly supported for spells to glow, sparkle, or otherwise. |
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Oct 16 2007, 07:07 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Oh my god, Tarantula has been possessed by the ghost of Doctor Funkenstein! :D |
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Oct 16 2007, 07:14 PM
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#20
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Noticing Spell Casting is a Perception test.
If you allow the spell caster additional tests to avoid being noticed, the perceiver should also be allowed additional modifiers or tests. I personally don't mind what tests or modifiers you end up using as long as it makes for a fun game. Almost any mix of attributes or modifiers probably has some excuse to affect this. It's MAGIC! Your game your choice. |
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Oct 16 2007, 08:10 PM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes you can. There are no restrictions on which spells a person could multi-cast. |
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Oct 16 2007, 08:31 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 29-August 03 Member No.: 5,553 |
I've been toying around with that technique you mentioned a bit ago, Fortune - multicasting several low-drain combat spells rather than one big nuke spell. Interesting.
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Oct 16 2007, 08:32 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
I used to multicast in 3rd the area effect Laser and Thunder spells. Great effect. bad Drain.
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Oct 16 2007, 10:00 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Do you have to split your drain resistance pool too or do you get your full drain resistance pool on each multicast spell?
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Oct 16 2007, 10:06 PM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
+X to the drain for each spell where X is the number of multicast spells.
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