 Book Club: Runner Havens |
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 Oct 30 2007, 12:34 PM
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#126
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151  |
Aside from the interchangeability argument I will say I most likely did not get all the Easter eggs in the book. Of course I only knew to look for some by the comments in this thread. I did catch references here and there, like the Firefly/Serenity one, but some passed me by. Especially the box office ones.
Did anyone post what the easter eggs are and what they reference? |
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Oct 30 2007, 01:45 PM
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#127
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Then show me how the section I quoted isn't Bangor, Maine as much as Seattle. I agree that there are sections that aren't interchangeable, which is the core of your argument, But by and large, you've missed my argument. Other than the Space Needle, which is the defining landmark of the skyline, I haven't once mentioned one single space to go and see. I have mentioned how the Ork Underground is now transplantable into any city, anywhere. It's more a treatise on ork culture than a location. |
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Oct 30 2007, 03:06 PM
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#128
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, part of it comes back to having multiple authors. When I wrote Hong Kong, I started out with key ideas and themes I wanted to express and developed the pieces (locales, district descriptions, NPC personalities) to express them. For example, I wanted to express the desperation and darkness in the lives of the refugee population, so I packed them into the Kowloon Walled City, had them tormented by the Yama Kings, and ruled over by the butchers of the Black Chrysanthemum Triad. Once I express those conditions, understanding why the 9x9 terrorists exist becomes more plausible. The links between the elements are what create the grounding that Cain seems to really like.
But when you have multiple authors, each one has their own ideas they want to express and it's difficult sometimes to cross those ideas over between different authors. If I had a co-author on Hong Kong who was writing the Districts section, it's tough for me to tell him to write a district a certain way because it strengthens an idea I have for one of my sections. Even if he agrees with my idea, it's still his writing and is going to have its own flavor. I think that's why you have some sections of Seattle that have strong links and flavor, because they were the ones each of the authors working on Seattle really wanted to express. In between those, however, you inevitably end up with orphan ideas that aren't as well linked or grounded. Those can easily be transplanted to other sprawls just because they aren't as linked to everything else. Which could be good or bad. Equally, if a GM favors his ideas for a sprawl over the writers' intent, it's easier to change up those elements than it would be for him to change up the material in the Hong Kong section. |
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Oct 30 2007, 03:13 PM
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#129
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
On the topic of in-jokes in the material. It's purely personal opinion, but I think there were a few too many in-jokes in the Seattle section. When reading it, I'll admit I spent more time hunting for easter eggs and less time really focusing on the setting. It got a bit distracting.
But, on the other hand, in-jokes highlight a weakness in my own writing. I'm pretty terrible at them. Early Shadowrun books had a recognizable quirkiness to them, creating lasting jokes like NERPS. There isn't much of that quirkiness in the Hong Kong setting, because I'm not so great at writing it. |
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Oct 30 2007, 04:48 PM
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#130
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
To be fair, Cain didn't say it was interchangeable with ANY city, but it was generally interchangeable. Of course there are going to be execeptions and statistical outliers, and boy did you find one out beyond sigma six. In the case of Washington, D.C., you're trying to disprove his general thesis by providing a counter-example that is pretty hard to make interchangeable with ANY city unless a writeup for D.C. was written so broadly and badly that it had to have been done on purpose. The one example I can think of as far as manufactured, specific for the purpose of being a national capital exclusive of all other reasons for it being a major city like economic, cultural or otherwise is Brasilia, or if you really make a stretch, Canberra. |
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Oct 30 2007, 04:55 PM
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#131
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
Well, then there are some of us who don't get them and don't even notice. Which is unfortunate in itself because I presume they should serve another purpose beyond the author showing how much minutiae he knows about SR from 1989 or something. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:03 PM
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#132
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151 |
I cannot since I have never been to Bangor, ME. I can say it would not fit for Philadelphia, D.C., Pittsburg, or Atlanta since those are ones I have lived in or visit frequently.
A single space to go and see? To be honest this is about a book for criminals doing illegal things. Why would sight seeing be on the agenda at all? Given the time and inclination I could write a nice write up of D.C. that would only mention the monuments/Smithsonians in a single throwaway line and still capture the feel of the city. Especially since there is a lot more to D.C. than monuments.
Ok, I listed three more cities above which his changed write up would not describe. I am willing to drop D.C. and move to one of those if you like. I mean I would no want to disprove his argument with a "statistical outlier". So with just cut and pasting the Seattle names and not changing anything else. The write up does not feel like Philadelphia, Pittsburg, or Atlanta either. Are those cities OK or just more outliers? |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:06 PM
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#133
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151 |
They do not bother me but I apparently did not get a lot of the non-SR ones either. I got a few here and there once I read them but not a whole lot. Especially not enough for me to think the Seattle section was full of them. Although after reading the posts it might well be and I just missed many of them. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:22 PM
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#134
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 17-January 07 Member No.: 10,677 |
Having lived in Atlanta for 18 years I could easily see it describing a 2070 Atlanta if you just take out the line about an ocean breeze. I visit home 3 or 4 times a year and every time I get to hear some of the silly things my state and county governments have done since I left. An election that has no candidates worth voting for with some using racial and economic demographics to smear the incumbant? Like that's never happened before. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:25 PM
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#135
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151 |
I want to add this. I am not trying to get Cain or anyone else to change their opinion I am merely injecting a counter-opinion. I am also not disagreeing with all of Cain opinion. I will present what I think his opinions are and Cain is free to correct/clarify if he feels the need:
"Some parts of the Seattle sections are so bland that they barely seem to describe the city I live in" - This part I cannot disagree with since I do not live in Seattle and have only spent a grand total of two days there ever. "These parts are so bland you could plug them into any major city by just changing the names" - This part I disagree with. These parts may be bland to Cain, maybe even bland for Seattle, but cannot, in my opinion, to transported to any major city without either becoming even more generic or being changed more than 'cut and paste' a few names. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:28 PM
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#136
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151 |
So just the ocean breeze then? Change some names and remove ocean breeze and that is Atlanta? Wow, OK if you feel like it does. It does not for me but thats cool. As for the election part that happens everywhere but I am not sure this Governor election is as unimportant as say Maine's in the SR world. Although with Cain making Bangor a hub of Shadowrunning activities maybe it is.... |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:45 PM
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#137
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 3-May 06 From: On the Run Member No.: 8,521 |
After not playing SR for the longest time and getting back into it with SR4.... the Seattle section in Runner Havens left me less than impressed. Then again even the New Seattle sourcebook left me with a "meh....whatever" for the most part.
Runner Havens, at least the Seattle portion, left me so unimpressed that I went to the half-price books across the street and bought 3 copies of the old Seattle Sourcebook for $10, since then I've cracked open Runner Havens.... maybe twice? So, I definately agree with Cain. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:45 PM
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#138
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Let's try Philadelphia, then:
Granted, I've only been to Philadelphia for a week, twenty five years ago, but that still seems to fit in a literary sense. That is, everything still makes sense with only a cut-and-paste job on the names. I don't know the local flavor, landmarks, or anything else to add; but then again, the lack of added stuff is the point of this debate.
I agree that the "writing by committee" approach probably hurt the Seattle section. In general, it hurts most writing styles. Having written scientific papers that way, I can safely say that it's a very difficult task.
I'm going to slightly disagree here. Back when the original Seattle material was written, what you're referring to was straight humor, not in-jokes. In-jokes connotate a joke only the insiders will get; back then, there weren't any real insiders. As material has developed over the years, new players coming in and old ones dropping out, the population who can get these references gets smaller and smaller. Thus, they become in-jokes.
AH is a major Shadowrun trivia buff. If there's a fault here, it's that he forgot that the rest of us aren't, as well. Many of these jokes would be funny to those of us who've been around since 1989; there's just too many of them, which can confuse newer players and annoy older ones. |
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Oct 30 2007, 07:22 PM
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#139
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151 |
You know what Cain? I am willing to concede that the specific sections on elections could probably be anywhere since elections happen anywhere if you also change "Governor" to "Mayor" since the Governor of PA resides in Harrisburg. Oh and change one of the candidates since Mayorship of a city in the UCAS that is not Seattle (Which is now a Governorship anyways) would not be a realistic goal of someone who tried to be President of the UCAS. You will also need to remove the "increased hostility from NAN" since the Mayor of Philly would not be worrying about that. The thing is in the SR world the Governorship of Seattle is a bit unique to Seattle. this is due to Seattle being a UCAS land surrounded by non-UCAS lands. Normally Governorship is state related not city related. The fact that Seattle is permitted it's own international diplomatic corps, and can make trade deals, also speaks volumes on how powerful the Governorship of Seattle is compared to the Governorship of Maine (or Pennsylvania). I can see why someone who wanted to be the President of the UCAS would consider being Governor of Seattle. When you add in the talk of secession then this position has the ability to gain more power/status. The above also explains why a Governor race for Seattle is actually as important as the UCAS Presidential race in the Shadowrun world. |
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Oct 30 2007, 09:05 PM
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#140
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The governorship of Seattle is indeed, unique to Seattle. However, the writeup isn't. As you can see by the white-out test, what should have been a strongly local plot hook is, instead, a fairly insipid example of an interchangeable setting. There are examples of writing with good local ties, such as the Arcology writeup. That one can't be transplanted so readily. But unfortunately, IMO those are the exception, not the rule. Most of the chapter is very similar to the governor's race. Here's another one. My pet peeve, the Ork Underground. Now, in reality, the Ork Underground is based on the Seattle Underground, which came about due to the Great Fire of 1889. People simply built over the old buildings, causing an amazing series of tunnels; you can take a tour of them to this day. That took all of, what, two sentences to say? Two sentences to add a tidbit of interesting local trivia, which in turn adds an incredible local flavor to the section. Let's see how transplantable the actual section is:
See what I mean? I just transplanted the whole thing to Atlanta, while only changing 8 words. Put those two sentences in, and suddenly I can't do that. Add just a few more words to tie things in locally, and now the Ork Underground is firmly locked in Seattle. Inestead of being "an attitude", which could belong anywhere. |
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Oct 30 2007, 09:22 PM
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#141
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
"The Ork Underground is based on the Atlanta Underground, which came about due to the Great Fire of 1889. People simply built over the old buildings, causing an amazing series of tunnels; you can take a tour of them to this day." Sorry, Cain, but anything can be changed if someone doesn't know about it. I have no idea whether there was actually a fire in Seattle. Do I care? Not really. Would I know the difference if it talked about the great fire of Chicago or the great fire of Hong Kong or the great fire of Katmandu? Not without some serious research. For the vast majority of people, myself included, our knowledge of history isn't so strong that we're bothered by the minutiae that make a locale specific. These books are about creating a setting, whether or not it's interchangeable. Does the Seattle section do a good job of giving someone unfamiliar with the game a setting to play in? A fairly good job in my mind. Sure, it could have a few more specifics and a few less "inside" jokes, but overall, it's successful in what it sets out to do. To be honest, I'd rather have more local flavor in the Seattle section as well, but complaining about it and cutting and pasting over and over isn't going to change the book or make your point any clearer. It's been made and made well about five times already. I think it may be time to move on. |
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Oct 30 2007, 09:27 PM
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#142
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Agreed; the pungent scent of necroequisadism is starting to waft up from this topic... |
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Oct 30 2007, 10:33 PM
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#143
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
Wait a minute. Is it really an ocean breeze if the ocean is on the other side of the Sound and the Olympic Peninsula? Oh, Cain: You might want to make an ninth change and make the Great Fire of 1889 be the razing of Atlanta during the Civil War. *Bam* site-specific. |
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Oct 30 2007, 10:36 PM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
I really like the muñeca fixer group in Caracas, though I wish I thought of it first. |
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Oct 31 2007, 09:02 AM
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#145
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 343 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Birmingham, UK Member No.: 13,515 |
As someone who's never even been to the USA, much less Seattle in particular, I found the Seattle section of Runner Havens a useful extension of info I'd gotten from the Seattle Sourcebook and New Seattle. Brackhaven's return, in particular, really caught my eye.
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Oct 31 2007, 09:22 AM
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#146
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Changing name of cities with names of other cities isn't funny. Why not try to change every word longer than 4 characters to the 5th word after it in the dictionary? Or with a word taken out from a synonym dictionary?
We got your point Cain, you can try all UCAS cities in Alphabetical order (maybe that's what you wanted to start with Atlanta, but I guess there are a few cities before) but maybe it's time to move on. |
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Oct 31 2007, 12:46 PM
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#147
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Centreville, VA Member No.: 8,151 |
So...does anyone want to fill me in on the easter eggs I obviously missed? :)
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Oct 31 2007, 05:48 PM
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#148
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Actually...About Seattle's "having the ability to undertake its own foreign relations"...
1. If I remember correctly, isn't the UCAS constitution more or less a cut-and-paste of the US one? (I think even the amendments are the same, up until the...13th is the SIN Amendment (ironically)?) 2. In such an instance, how in the hell is such an ability constitutional? I believe the Constitution -really clearly- reserves foreign relations powers to the Federal government? 3. If an amendment of that sort could be passed, it'd mean that *all* of the states have the ability to conduct their own foreign relations. Which...Well, Articles of Confederation, I'm looking at you. (In other words, maybe a Supreme Court decision to retcon that piece of stupid would be good.) |
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Oct 31 2007, 10:45 PM
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#149
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That leads into the question of how many in-jokes and prior references is appropriate. IMO, the Seattle material is only really useful when you've got the previous Seattle SB's to fall back on. How do total newcomers feel? Especially now that the presence of all those easter eggs has been revealed? |
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Oct 31 2007, 11:38 PM
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#150
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
If the Congress can permit states to form compacts among each others (this means you, New England Dairy Compact), I think that granting Seattle power to conduct commerce under Congress' authority is perfectly acceptable. All it really would do is give Seattle contract-making authority to foreign trade offices that many states (and cities) already have established overseas now without having to go through Congress for every little deal. |
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